Being a Christian and a Soldier is Hard

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi folks.
I was wanting your opinion on this. I lost my faith in god after serving in Bosnia, I thought if there was a god would he allow these horrors to happen.
I don't know if you, Anthony and Desert Dweller would agree on this. But being a soldier and a christian does not mix. Not in our line of work. I've used my weapon on many occaisions especially in Gulf War 1.
I used to be a regular church goer. But not now, I haven't been inside a church for 12 years.
I don't condone people who do go, as I would never ram my reasons down their throats. Each to their own as I say.
Thanks for listening to me.
Scott:hello:

[cookie]

i'm sorry, scott that you had a bad experience, that is when your faith can be the most help. i don't believe in ramming things down people's throats, either. that doesn't accomplish anything. it has to be a personal thing between you and God. if you want to know if He's real--ask Him. i used to question how God could let things in my early childhood happen--but i know it's part of this human condition of sin, and satan has freedom to roam here on this earth , now, but not forever. yes, God could wipe it out--and He's going to , but til then, that's part of life here. not trying to talk anyone into anything--just my 2 cents.
cathy

[Scott_Fraser]

Thanks Cathy.
I Will remember that, but like I said, seeing so many horrors in Bosnia made me think. I'm just a normal British Soldier, I was trained to fight in Battle, not witness Genocide, that was the job of the SS. I'm still very sceptical about my faith, but maybe in time that will change.
Cheers
Scott:hello:

[veiled]

Scott, I believe it is very normal for one who is a Christian to lose faith or have it well rattled during this phase. This phase being the beginning and during so much pain and seeing so much. Personally, I have put my cross up on the wall to remind me, put my bibles back out, and wearing my cross again. I have not in ohh... 16 years? So this is a new phase for me. Still have not returned to church, but I have my own chats with the big guy... I think he understands ;)

But you will find different opinions here for sure as not everyone is Christian in their beliefs and faiths.

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Veiled
Thanks for your advice.
Yes I agree, I've lots of friends who are muslim or jewish, my best mate up in Glasgow was Jewish and we had great laughs.
But as I said, it will Take a lot of time. I'm a member of The Church of Scotland (Presbyterian), since I was 18. But my faith has gone at the moment. I do prey to the big guy and ask him why did he let this happen. To his people.
Cheers
Scott:hello:

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

Actually, I was talking to someone about this very thing the other day.

I wonder, Scott, what made you go into the armed services, and how would you say your faith was at that time?

I wonder about people who say they are faithful/spiritual/religious who go into the armed services. I wonder how they reconcile their beliefs with what they have to do as soldiers.

[anthony]

Well, I am not Christian to start with, nor am I a religious type of person. Never have been, never will be. That doesn't mean I don't have certain beliefs, it simply means I don't believe the nonsense that gets pulled over the eyes of the world by people such as the Catholic church and other organisation.

[mouse]

Hi Scott,
I have asked myself many times how can there be a God after witnessing the things that I see at work on a daily basis, life, death ,pain and suffering are all so very common, I have been angry at God for letting certain people die when we save others but I have come to the conclusion that things happen for a reason, we dont have to like the outcome nor do we need to understand it, I often question my faith but on the other hand sometimes I feel that God is the only one who would, could understand what I have seen and gone through, and I feel that I can talk to God with out interuptions, just my opinion But I know how hard it is to believ that God would let some of the things that happen occure we are not meant to understand I guess

[reallydown]

Hi Scott,

I'm not very religious...but have often wondered how people can call themselves true believers (any religion) and then go out and kill people...to me those people not true believers as no religion, in and of itself, promotes the kinds of awful things that human beings do to each other...i'd say that fanatics of all kinds often misinterpret or deliberately misrepresent (i can't think of a better term right now) certain aspects of religion in oreder to try to justify what they're doing etc...Perhaps sometimes some religious texts are taken too literally...I don't know what I was really trying to say...I knid of lost my train of thought...I odn't knwo if any o f thi s is ehlpful at all...

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Tabitha.
I joined the army as previous members of my family had served in the army and it is a family tradition. As for my beliefs before I joined, I was a regular church goer, and the local minister gave me lots of praise, as I was serving Queen and Country. And he gave me his blessing as well.
As to your other question, how do I reconcile my beliefs with the job that I did. I suppose you could say, that fighting for Queen and Country does reconcile me with the Lord, as I believed then that I was doing the right thing.
Cheers
Scott:hello:

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi mouse.
You are probably right, although in my line of work it is hard to understand.
Cheers
Scott:hello:

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

Hmmm.

Just trying to understand. How does fighting for Queen and Country reconcile you with the Lord? Is it the feeling that you obeyed your orders, didn't shirk or run away from your duties as an enlisted man? Is it a case of the church's being tied with state, and that's why the minister gave his blessing?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is - personally - how was your conscience as a christian after performing your duties? Do you get what I'm trying to ask? Because I think I just confused myself. :crazy-blu

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi there Tabitha.
No the Church of Scotland is not tied to the State and always has been independant of the state and of the Queen. I did my duties to the best of my abilities and sometimes I bent the rules but I never broke them. I just worked my socks off and became a Platoon Sergeant at 25. And yes I've fired my weapon in anger many times, and I had know beef about that. As that was my job. But it was seeing the horrors in Bosnia and in particular a little girl of 4 was murdered right in front of me by a Croat Sniper as I gave her a bar of Chocolate. And from then that image has lived with me. I started to lose my faith after that. And I haven't been in a church for over 10 years. Nor do I intend to in the future. If their was a god he wouldn't have allowed these horrors to go on.
Thanks for listening to me Tabitha.
Take Care
Scott:hello:

[motorjack]

hi scott
Scott i say that faith is for who ever wishes to follow it. I know myself that how could a "GOD" allow such acts of violence, over and over agian. I have been all over the world and it has never changed whether its been, christian, islam,cathloic or what evr relgion they belief in. They all have there so called battles in the name of there GOD and do such horrible things in his name. Its the place we live in and we cant change it....mj

[cookie]

hey, as to God allowing terrible things to happen, yes He does ALLOW it(not cause) yes He could, and sometimes does stop it. also he allowed His son to go through some very awful things for our sin, and He had to turn His back on His son there while He took our place.God is not a teddy bear, not a genie to keep in your pocket til you need Him, He is creator and owner of the universe and all that is in it. He gets to make the rules, He chooses to love us. we will never understand everything til we get to Heaven(hopefully) when we see something awful happen, and we don't try to stop it, does that make us terrible people, or suggest that we weren't real? ok, off my soapbox, don't get mad at me, i want to take as many with me as i can!
cathy

[Scott_Fraser]

Thanks Cathy for your words. Much appreciated.
Take Care
Scott:hello:

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

I understand that God is the Creator and Owner of the universe. That I get.

What I don't get is ...why make the rule not to kill, maim, and otherwise harm other human beings and then not prevent it's breakage? Why command (through His son) to love thy neighbor and then not prevent abuse, neglect, etc? What is the point? Why make the rules and then not do much of anything when they get broken?

Reminds me of a quote from Constantine: God is a kid with an ant farm.

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Tabatha how are you.
I'm getting a little confused here could you give me a little explanation of what you said.
Cheers
Scott:hello:

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

What I meant by the quote? I was quoting Constantine the graphic novel/movie character, btw.

Whenever I think about the nature of God, I get frustrated. What's the point of making rules for human behavior, claiming those who break them will be punished, and then just standing by and watching them get broken without really intervening?

I understand God gave humans free will and that may have a part in it, but it still confuses me. It's like we're just ants in a giant ant farm. It's like we're just His Little Experiment. There's an underlying cruelty there.

[Scott_Fraser]

Thats true Tabatha.
But I still don't want a man in a pulpit telling me what to do with my life.
I'm not proud of what I've done, but I think that I did it for the right reasons.
And being a soldier was part of that. I suppose when you live in a country that has a monarchy like the UK, Canada and Australia. But also I'd do it all again, I wouldn't change it. There is still the soldier in me trying to get out. Just ask any ex-servicemen. I've never done drugs or broke the law, nor do I intend to start trying now.
Whenever I see my old regiment in the news (There in Basra again) I wish that I was with them. As I see a lot of the guys that I trained are now senior NCO's. That will never change.
Why don't we log onto live chat sometime and we can have a better talk about this subject. Let me know when you are going on and I'll try and be there. I don't have a web-cam but we could still chat.
Cheers
Scott:hello:

[cookie]

i've seen God intervene in many ways, and sometimes not intervene when i don't understand. God does not force Himself on mankind, He could, but He does not.He did give some basic laws for the Jews(not the pile of things they have accumulated, lol) He knew men would break them, because we are sinful by nature. there are consecquences of sin, and even if you're forgiven, that doesn't mean you won't suffer the "natural" consequences of sin. the laws that people make for themselves, which include some form of many of His laws(at least in the us) are to be upheld by people. God could do it, but He does give us free will, about more than just accepting Him. i wouldn't call allowing Himself to come to earth as the Son, to suffer the consequences of our sin, so that we could have redemption, as standing back and watching.
Have you ever told a child that you were going to punish them if they did something.(like grounded from tv for a week, etc.) and then, when they did just that, you backed off of the punishment, maybe making it easier, or "forgetting" to enforce it.(like: but mom, I HAVE to watch American Idol!)
if we got what we deserve for our actions, there wouldn't have been anyone left a long time ago. and God did send the flood. and He is going to send fire some day to destroy this earth, after the millenium. ok, i know you can't hear the tone in typing , so know that i am not upset or wanting to force something on you. but i would love for everyone to be able to have the personal relationship that i have with the LORD, that is what He wants--a relationship/love from us that is not forced, but given freely. "nuff said"
cathy

[cookie]

But I still don't want a man in a pulpit telling me what to do with my life.
If the man in the pulpit is a true servent of God, he is not telling you what to do with your life. he is telling everyone what the Word of God (God's own direction)
says about each life. God is to lead your life, if you have surrendered. the minister is simply someone to explain God's Word, and draw your attention to it.
there some that are in some kind of power thing, but that is not from God.
cathy:hello:

[Scott_Fraser]

Hey Cathy, strong stuff girl. Have you ever considered becoming a minister, lol.
But there is a line from "Romans" 5, which says "Vengence is mine, I shall re-payeth said the lord". I've always liked that even more after the scum that shot that little girl in Bosnia 13 years ago. But the last chapter in the bible is good. The Book of Revelations. I some times read that.
But I love a lot of friends that are Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Catholic and they are great mates and we always wind each other up about our religeons. Which is fun. If you take it serious you could end up in the Nut House.
Take Care Cathy, You always shoot from the hip, good on yer girl.
Scott:hello:

[cookie]

scott i am not trying to be harsh. i have friends that are other religions, and just non-christians. my job is to love them, to show them the love of Christ, and be available to pray for them, or with them, and show them how to get a personal relationship with Him IF they ask. we are not to mistreat anyone, reguardless of religion, race, even sexual pref.(not condone, love the person, God will take care of the rest) you would like my husband, he teaches a lot of prophecy classes in Rev. and Daniel. yeah, he's a preacher (that's country for minister) and yeah i'm hardheaded sometimes, but it's out of love, really!
cathy

[Scott_Fraser]

Thanks Cathy.
Being Scottish I like people for who they are and not what they are. All this religious bigotry really shames me, especially here in the West of Scotland and Northern Ireland where I did several tours of duty.
Over here the first thing some people ask you is, what soccer team do you support, Rangers or Celtic. Let me explain: The supporters of Rangers are Prodestant and the supporters of Celtic are Catholic. And when both teams meet they scream religous bile at each other. Don't get me wrong, the majority of the supporters are ok. But it is the few bigots that make the trouble. Some prodestants are members of the Orange Lodge, and they are very anti-catholic. It is the same in Northern Ireland, when the marching season starts in June, the trouble starts and it is left to the police and soldiers to try and keep the peace. Its a hard job, I've done it.
I do a lot of praying at home especially at night. When I put the light out, I just lie there in the darkness and pray. When I left the Army I thought about being a Minister in the Church of Scotland, I felt I had some kind of calling. Does that sound weird to you. But now that I have Combat Stress and PTSD there is no way that I would be suitable for it.
Thanks for listening to me Cathy, you're a good mate and you say it like it is.
Cheers
Scott:music:

[DesertDweller]

Jock,

I appoligize for jumping in this so late. To be honest I guess I was really avoiding it. Being overseas really did change my views on alot of things, including religion. I remember our chaplin would give sunday service every sunday without a miss. I never "attended" but was always an earshot away. I think to me that was a time for me to reflect on my sorroundings and prefered to be alone. Its hard to think that there is good in the world when you see so much going on around you. Its tough, especially since I think you have to believe in something in order to make it through mentaly. You want to believe that there is an ultimate good you are working towards after all,.. here is my issue, I didnt and dont see the good after the bad. This really makes you question your beliefs.

[Scott_Fraser]

Thanks DD, your advice is much appreciated buddy.
Cheers
Jock:hello:

[waynes]

I know this is a 'hard to accept' fact, but here goes. The reason things such as murder, violence and all of the sin that goes with it is allowed to continue, is simple. When the Archetect of the universe created man it was with one concept in Mind. Companionship. Our Lord wishes to have willing servants, not mindless slaves. He can make all of those He wants.
To have willing servants, those beings, (us) must have freedom of choice. To acheive this end, evil had to come into existance. Good must have its alturnitive, or its contrast. For all of this to run its race, for the most part He does not interfere. It is beyond imagining the tears Jesus has shed for the atrosities commited in His Name. WE, WE are resposible as humanity, for the horror that goes on down here, not God. We have been given the choice to choose good or evil. What you see as God given trauma is accualy the results of decisions being made by us.
You see, God has given us more than one wonderful gift, the least of which is not, the freedom to be resposible for our own actions. By giving us such freedom, we are made more like Him.
Personally I thank Him most for Jesus. A way for me to see Him as one of us. Keep your eye on the ball. It's not about how many times you go to church a week, it's about having a personal relationship with Jesus. All you have to do is call His Name. He will hear and will see you through. For me this is not faith but knowledge.:think:


Wayne

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Wayne.
Thanks for your messge, its a bit heavy going but I take on your point of view. But like the title of my thread, can a soldier be a christian at the same time, as basically we are trained to commit legalised murder, Anthony and DD know what I'm talking about.
Cheers Wayne
Scott:hello:

[cookie]

ya, scott, many wars/battles in the Bible. same situation, sometimes even told to fight by God. you can be both, i have a friend with ptsd from viet nam, and he is a solid Christian. you just have to get past blaming yourself, and then blaming God. Blame sin.

[Scott_Fraser]

Thanks Cathy for your kind words. As we say in Scotland, "You're a wee Gem".
Scott:thumbs-up

[nermal64]

Wow! When I first signed up for this forum, I signed up to get help, helping my soldier son handle his PTSD. Ignoring all the abuse I recieved form my ex-husband... and simply throwing myself into my children's life to avoid my own problems. I DEFINATELY understand the religion conflict in this thread. My ex was a Christian "when it was convient" I turned away from the the Christian religion because of all the contradicting "rules" My son still says he is a Christian, but doesn't "live the lifesyle" He isvery angry all the time... many sexual partners... not attending services... I believe a soldier can be religious (Christian... Pagan... etc...) but it is very difficult!

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Nermal how are you. Thanks for your reply. Whether your son goes out with various women does not make a sinner in God's Eyes. He is merely trying to settle down and him going out with the girls is part of that.
I'm a afraid that being a soldier I've used my rifle on various situations, and I have killed, so I don't know how God sees that, as I was doing my job. And your son did the same many times in Nam.
Thanks for listening to me.
Take care:crazy-blu

[waynes]

Scott,
From my limited knowledge of what you have been through, all I can say is this. I had a friend who was an officer in the 'Nam' conflict. He insisted that all men went to their knees in prayer before they went on patrol. Their AO was near Pleiku. His entire tour went without losing a man in his care. This was even through the 68" Tet. He later became a Babtist preacher. He used this as a witness to many.
I used to hunt with this man and I see one of the reasons they survived. He was the most exceptional snap shot I have ever witnessed.
He believed that if you follow the LEGAL orders you are given, and try to help the non-cobatants Our Lord will honor that.
All that being said, having never been in combat I am not qualified to answer your question and wish my friend were still alive. He would know what to say. All I can do is try to comfort someone who is hurting. I am sure you have seen too much, and pray that you will be comforted by our Lord.

Wayne

[Scott_Fraser]

Thanks Wayne, it means a lot to me that.
Cheers
Scott:thumbs-up

[mac]

can a soldier be a christian at the same time

As a soldier, you can label yourself as, and believe you are, a "Christian." So I guess the answer would be 'yes.'

In its purest interpretation, to be and live as a true Christian, and also be a soldier, is incompatable. You trade off, or will at some point, one for the other.

"Romans" 5, which says "Vengence is mine, I shall re-payeth said the lord".

Well, maybe this so-called PTSD is punishment!

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

I don't look at PTSD as punishment anymore -- more like a signal. It's like pain -- your nervous system uses pain to alert to you that something is not right...

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Tabitha, how are you. Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. There is still the soldier in my blood, after all I served 15 years. It will always be there.
Despite me having Combat Stress, I would do it all again if I had to live my life again. Because despite my health as it is now, There was a lot of good times when I thought that I was making a difference to peoples lives in a small way, we are not just trained to kill, we are trained to help out people less fortunate than ourselves, I think thats what makes us the best in the world.
I was in Berlin with my regiment the night that the Wall came down, and I think that the Lord was involved in that in some small way. And the joy on peoples faces was wonderful to see. I drunk a few bottles of beer that night and a few kisses from the Frauliens as well. I will never forget it as long as I live.
Cheers
Scott:hello:

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

Uh-oh...you didn't catch Hasselhoff (sp) didja? :biggrin:

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Tabitha,
What has David Hasselhoff got to do with it?
Scott:hello: :dont-know

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

Wasn't he singing his song, "Freedom", on the wall when it went down?

[Scott_Fraser]

I don't know Tabitha, but its a pity the Wall didn't fall down on top of him. LOL.
Why do you call yourself No Twitch Tabitha.
Scott:hello:

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

Random idiot: Your name's Tabitha? Whoa, is that your real name?
Me: Yes, it is.
Random idiot: Wow - were you named after that kid from Bewitched?
Me (getting annoyed because this is only the 2,000,000,000,000th time I have been asked this in my life): No, I wasn't.
Random idiot (ignoring the fact that I'm staring daggers at him and ignoring the answer to the previous question): Can you twitch your nose like her?
Me: No, I can't - if I could, you wouldn't be in front of me asking such stupid questions.

Other person walks away in a huff because I refuse to laugh at his unoriginal, uninspired, insipid pop culture reference.

***

Anyway, the answer to your question is "I'm the Tabitha who doesn't twitch her nose", hence No-Twitch Tabitha.

[Scott_Fraser]

Sorry Tabitha, never mind i don't twitch my nose either. I've never watched bewitched anyway. I just liked your name Tabitha, its different.
Scott:hello:

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

I love my name. It's just I get tired of people who ask me if I'm named after some kid on a TV show.

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Tabitha
Yeah you should like your name, its lovely.
Scott:music: