I Wish I Had Faith - God Or Myself?

[mac]

I wish I had faith in God. At one time I did, but with all the evil and suffering of the innocent that goes on throughout the world, I cannot maintain any such faith anymore. My mind does not comprehend how God would let man's free-will trump what's supposed to be His will. When you look at other societies and cultures, it's not difficult to see why the old explanation of religion as mearly a 'means to control the masses' is so valid.

[Portabella]

I once had faith also, however I lost it in 1981 and can say either there is no God, or if there is I cannot forgive him.

[vcc123]

I know.. cheesy.. but - no matter the religion, you have to have faith. I think God gave us free will to make choices, right or wrong. I was angry at God for taking my Mom away when I was young, I really needed her. But in your heart of hearts, no matter how bad things get.. he's still watching over you. We're supposed to make choices, experience 'life', and know that in the end, it makes us who we are.

Even with the hurt, anger, frustration, guilt, etc.. that we feel.. I still pray, all the time. Dont lose faith, its the ONE thing besides YOU that will always be there.

I'm not meaning to be 'preachy' believe ME.. I'm the LAST person on the planet that judges someone for religious beliefs. But with or without religion.. there IS God. That much I know. I guess it makes me feel like I'm not completely alone, and neither are you. :redface:

[cookie]

i don't understand why God allows some of these things, except that he has given satan the earth to roam for a time, and my faith took a beating for a little while, but i always knew God was real, and i know that he is here for me now. It doesn't really matter what we think, God is owner and creator of everything. he wants us to have a close relationship with him, this i know. and it has certainly helped me through this mess, as i am a long way from perfect, but i am forgiven.

[Scott_Fraser]

Hi Mac. I lost my faith after serving with the British Army in Bosnia. I saw horrors there that I didn't expect to see in Europe again after WW2. As a soldier I was trained to fight on the European Mainland against the Russians. I was not trained to experience Genocide, I'm not an SS man, just a British Soldier.
So Mac, you are not alone in this.
Scott

[anthony]

I am curious as to what "faith" has to do with "god" actually! Faith in God is one thing, Faith in life, Faith in yourself, Faith in others, very different things. I don't believe their is a hell or heaven to be honest, because until someone proves it too me, it doesn't exist, however; that doesn't mean I don't believe their is life after death, as there is proof of ghosts, spirits, another life after this one, just unknown as to what that is exactly. I have faith in those things, I have faith in my family, I have faith in myself, but I don't have faith in something I don't know actually exists and is a perpetuated myth of epic proportion to create an entity to worship, thus follow others. I believe in making my own decisions, and that no one entity is going to help me make those decision.

I don't understand why people believe "God" is going to help them with PTSD, considering it is a belief, not a fact. The fact is that you have a neurological imbalance within your brain, the fiction is that there is one powerful entity that watches over life, and guides it! Fact is that to heal trauma and live life, one must have faith in themself, one must believe in themself; fiction is that this "God" is going to somehow just fix them up, without them doing a damn thing.

I know which worked for me, and it wasn't the later. I know whats working for others, and its also not the later. I think maybe people need to concentrate on having faith in themselves in order to get through life in general, not just any one aspect, but all of life. To believe in yourself is to be assertive, to be confident in your own ability, and not rely on someone doing the work for you, because that is a sure fire let down before it begins.

[FlyLadyFan]

It was deep faith in myself that brought me to my utter breakdown with PTSD, to the point of having to choose between death by suicide or letting go of EVERYTHING to see if God would follow through on His promises -- it was the only thing I hadn't tried yet and there was nothing left to lose, literally. The last step before suicide was to literally lay down and let the world and my life happen without my input.

So my life was like a house on fire, and I had to choose to definitely perish inside it or jump out the window and just probably perish. But when I jumped out the window, God did not catch me as I expected. Instead ... He taught me how to fly.

.

[mouse]

I choose to have Faith, but to have Faith it needs to be faith in something so I chose God. I know that he has a reason for what has happened to me and all of us, I sure don't understand it yet, and probably wont till it is my time. I like to think that during the times that I was subject to abuse, he was there quietly holding my hands crying with me trying to ease some of the pain. I also know that when good things happen he is there watching and happy. many people ask how I do my job and see the things I see and do the things I do and how I can still believe in God, How could I not I dont have to understand his decisions, nor do I have to like them but I should learn from them. God to me is just a label that seems universal to me its my faith in a greater being that has given man the choice to make decisions and now feels the regret and pain of doing so, I feel he also has Faith that man will make good decisions, ones to make things better. Just as all of us, feel the pain from an act committed, there is joy in the fact that with out the gift of choice none of us would have choosen to come to this web site to meet each other and learn to heal.

[motorjack]

Faith is what ever you wish it to be. Faith in yourself, in others and what you choose to do. You dont need a "god" to have faith. It comes from your aspect of the world and how you understand things. I have no faith in any god but have faith in man(somedays)..................mj

imo

[cookie]

anthony, God does help those of us who choose to let Him, this i know. i know there is a heaven, i know there is a hell, but that is faith. by the time someone could prove it to you without faith, it will be too late.
why do you think people from the dawn of time have looked for God? because He reveals himself in nature, and then in spirit. i double dirty dog dare you to humble yourself and ask God himself to show you He is real.
cathy

[anthony]

I have asked him Cathy, and nothing happened, hence why I don't believe there is one. I do believe in life after death. Like MJ said, faith is what you perceive it to be. Let me be very honest here, I believe the US is brain washed with religion from birth. Hell, you have it on your money, so you see every day of your life, "in god we trust". How much more brain washing do you want? There are other countries around the world that are similar, in that religion is pushed upon them from birth, no choice, or little choice, but brain washed into the population as children. Free choice? That could be an interesting debate!

I don't see god Cathy... never have, doubt I ever will; same goes with the devil. Unless someone can prove they exist, without doubt, then my mind won't change. There is one thing to believe they exist, that is called faith, and as MJ pointed out, that changes uniquely per person. I don't believe either exist because I don't believe something that I can't see, touch, or be explained. I believe there are other people in the universe, because there is too much unexplained regarding it. What, do we honestly think we are the only existence in the entire universe, something that has infinite depth? I don't think so....

Then ghosts... again, too much enexplained in regard to them, so I believe they exist, because there are those they can prove and disprove, then the unexplained. God and the devil.... well, something I believe was created by the Catholic church to push wealth and a following for corrupt world tactics. Bill Gates money is nothing to the Catholic church. Tell me its about religion, and I can show you how much monies at stake. Its now an empire, its a business, its a way to get the world to try and do things and follow like puppets when the strings are pulled IMHO.

[cookie]

you realize, anthony that Christianity was alive and well long before the catholic church came into being, and judaism before that? i don't want to fight with you, nor make your angry. i don't believe in pushing people too hard, it has to be their decision after all.
who said that if you believe in God that there can't be other people or beings in the universe? i believe He created the universe, and we know about angelic beings and humans, the Bible does not say there are no more. who knows? if there are others, i know He created them, too.
you don't want to know what i believe about ghosts, so i won't go there
by the way. we do take up an offering at church, the money goes to pay for heating,ss materials, missionaries, our mortgage, etc. my pastor(husband)does not receive a nickel for his work, as a matter of fact we also give of tithes and offerings. brooks never preaches about giving money-he teaches about stewardship of your entire life, time,money, talent, etc. our small church gives way above the tithe, and they are never coerced into it. some are in it for money, and that's all they'll have for it. i'd rather take a few souls with me to heaven some day.
by the way, it's not about religion for me, you can be religious about anything, it's about Christ.
speaking of money, do you really think people believe in God because it's on the money. wrong. and the world is a puppet sometimes, either God is pulling your strings, because you let Him, or satan is whether you know it or not.
our country was founded on Biblical principals, but sadly has moved away from them and now it is politically correct to christian bash, although it's ok to let anything else go, especially wicca, and paganism, and humanism.
so, basically, "that dog won't hunt."
i respect your opinion, and you can certainly serve whom you want. but realize i said this as my opinion, and because i care about you.please don't be angry. tell me to leave you alone if you want, but don't be angry. the God you don't know, and the one i do loves you.
cathy

[anthony]

Cathy, I am not angry about any of this, not even flustered. This is opinionated discussion... I don't see a god or devil, don't believe they even exist. Some people have died for a short period, then returned, the things they say vary so much that no definative proof can be found, and then the more detailed aspect is that when asked what they believe in prior to death, the one's who believe in christianity and so forth, see a bright light or something like that, varies once again between them all, which has been directly associated to each person being in that situation have literally believed what they wanted to believe death was prior to the near death experience, ie. those who seen a white light always believed one existed, thus the brain told them what they have already made believed, and the list goes on and on with all the different things people see, or think they see in those experiences, and you will more often than not find the person had those thoughts prior to the near death, so their mind simply gave them what they had already pictured and put together, but only occurred in their mind, didn't really happen.

There is no definative proof either way! It is about beliefs, about faith. You believe there is a god, I don't believe that. You have faith in some higher power helping you in life, I don't, and see that the only person who can help anyone is themself.

[goingonhope]

i double dirty dog dare you to humble yourself and ask God himself to show you He is real.
Cookie, I'm going to borrow this sugg. for myself, bc I do believe in God and yet have had faith and lost it....found it again and lost it again....and so forth.

I'm struggling these days in relations. with God, and yet I believe and do have faith that yes, if I do ask him to show me he is real, and present, he will and my faith struggle will be over for as long as I continue to accept God.

Your post reminded me of this option, cookie. I had completely forgotton.

Once when I was convinced that I was totally unlovable and unworthy of God, .........Now mind you I had previously known little about God, nor recognized and acknowledged many experiences of God, a very kind man said that if you don't believe that God loves you, ask him to show you that he loves you.

I did this repeatedly and in his time, God soon showed me how very much he loves me. For a long time, I have cont. to ask and he responded by showing me in many ways.

It wasn't until, I gave up on my devot. disciplines and walked away that sometime afterwards my perspective of life and its meaning all shifted into a downward spiral, life got much tougher to live, and I began in my, (perhaps small, perhaps some larger) but ways none-the-less of perpetuating unneccessary suffering for myself and others.

I know all strength and loving power comes from God, and yet my thoughts and head will persistantly, work-overtime to trick me.

So again, cookie, I'll be borrowing this little prayer and be asking it, bc I now can spot a good thing when I see it.

And, really cookie, I want my faith back. And know that God wants this and will respond. So thanks for posting and sharing with us your faith.

Hope

[mac]

I notice a lot of people base their faith that God loves them by how much money or wealth they acquire in life. Makes me wonder...

Essentially, our body's life, just like any other animal or organism, is nothing more than chemical reactions taking place at any second in time. I would say that it is possible to break it down mathematically. In the past, man did not understand or have such knowledge as he does today, therefore its man's instinct to explain things that are not understandable in a divine light to fill in the pieces of the puzzle. Superstitions are also born from such ignorance. I don't know what difference it would really make, but I do wish I believed in God; I guess it would give me something to look forward to when I die.

[Linda]

I am an atheist, and do not feel the need for religion - not any more. No more faith after what happened in my country many years ago. The religion does not provide explanation for what's going on around, and the faith is not based on knowledge, so I can not accept it.
But I do have a faith in myself. I Think that the life is sometimes hard, but it is possible to handle it. I am a natural fighter, a daughter and a grand-daughter of fighters, and I know that someday things will be all right for me. I know it, althoug sometimes do nod feel like this.

[cookie]

mac, i don't even know anyone really wealthy personally. as a matter of fact, most of our church is made up of lower middle class, a few upper middle, and a few poor. we are all the same in God's eyes. i have never had a lot of money. as a matter of fact, if i write out a budget, we can't meet it, but somehow God keeps helping me out when i need it. and i know that He loves me. do you know in the Bible it speaks of how hard it is for a rich man to get into heaven.(about as easy as a camel passing through the eye of a needle) because many put their faith in their money instead of Him.
i also have a very good understanding of science. do you know that charles darwin based his THEORY of evolution on one species of bird, on one island, and that he basically said it was full of holes himself before he died? not claiming he converted, that didn't happen. but evolution is just a theory, and a poor one at that. look at the mechanics of the smallest organism,
i feel that science and God actually go hand in hand, and there are several christian men and women who are also scientists, lol.(and i'm not superstitious)whether or not you have faith or believe in God is your own business, i would love for you to, only for your own benefit, but would never ram it down your throat. however, not having faith in God yourself, how do you know what people base their faith on, and they are just all ignorant of science? i know in whom i have believed and i trust in him. what if you are right? we will both be dirt, and i will be none the wiser, lol. what if i'm right? where will we be then? i want everybody to be in heaven some day, and so does He, but i can't force you, and He won't.

[mac]

what if you are right? we will both be dirt, and i will be none the wiser, lol. what if i'm right? where will we be then?

I have to admit that is a good point.

One thing I have noticed is that those who believe in any sort of religion generally have a mental edge over those that don't. It almost seems like a survival instict ingrained into the mind of a human. I guess that's why they say there's no aethiest's in a fox hole during an attack. Reality is a big slap in the face though!

[goingonhope]

how do you know what people base their faith on, and they are just all ignorant of science?
Struggling to keep this simple. In finding and reading and participating in this thread I have become a obsessive mess over personlizing one simple statement, that being the appearance of an assumption.

Mac are you simply making the statement that you

"notice a lot of people base their faith that God loves them by how much money or wealth they acquire in life. Makes me wonder..."

or are you assuming that this has anything whatsoever to do with what I build and have built my faith upon? Because, if so? It in fact highly contradicts what I do indeed build my faith upon.

Get me out of here. I'm too sensitive! I don't belong here on this thread and tonight see threads such as these as nothing but the invitation for judgement, assumptions, fear and ill-feeling.

We've touched on everything from opinions to faiths to experiences and now we've introduced reality. All of which don't even mean the same thing; in fact defined very differently. The two closest in the definition are 'opinion' and 'faith'. And yet, still different, as faith 'kicks opinion up a notch' while including things like trust, reliance, conviction.

This is a dangerous thread for me to leave myself vulnerable. So, Bless and best wishes to you'all and have a goodnight.

[BassistKara]

Im personally an atheist, but have many friends who are religious....
I just wanted to add that i think if people had as much love for/faith in themselves as they do for "god" the world would most likely be an even slightly better place...
I also tend to find the whole thing very patriarchial, cult like and close minded.

[cookie]

too many people love themselves more than anybody else already. hence people thinking it's ok to just take what they want from others-physical or emotional. we are to love everyone as much as ourselves, so we are also to love ourselves, but not to esteem ourselves higher than another.

how can you say that religion is close-minded? when you have not been a part of it? what do you site for evidence? not denying that there are some cults and close-minded people out there,(I once knew a man that was so narrow-minded, he could look through a keyhole with both eyes open!) in the name of religion, but there are many that know their mission in life is just to live, and share God's love, hopefully to show others the way. i could say that i think all athiests are closed-minded too, but it wouldn't be true, because people are individuals, and you can't really lump us into a category like that.

by the way, it is hard to share these things with y'all not knowing the tone of my voice, lol. i am not angry, or feeling argumentative, rather happy to see people thinking on these things.
cathy

[Nam]

Faith is available to you whenever you want it. Sure, I had moments when I thought for sure He abandoned me, left me to whither and die....but it was I that rejected Him. No matter how angry, how anti-religious you are, He's still there for you. I don't go to church or read the Bible. I don't go to Sunday School, but I talk with Him everyday. I find that it helps to talk with Him about things that I can't talk with anyone else. Since He knows me inside and out, there's no point in lying or embellishing or down playing....I just say it. For some reason it makes me feel better.

[beatle_bailey]

at one time I believed so much it scared me cuz I was headed to hell {still may be } ,, ,, another time I hated God and any thing to do with him ,, ,,
,, But mostly I hated me and every thing I had become ,, ,, ,, much later I feel very different ,, I am OK with God and even more I am OK with who and what I have become since I quit all the drinking an druging ,, Beatle

PS,, hang on Brother

[anthony]

I also tend to find the whole thing very patriarchial, cult like and close minded.
I totally agree, in that religion is a form of cult, just seems an acceptable one. Seventh Day Adventists are known to be cultish, yet accepted. Scientology the same, yet accepted for some silly reason. Where does the line get drawn at cultish behaviour vs. commonsense where people really do think for themselves?
however, not having faith in God yourself, how do you know what people base their faith on, and they are just all ignorant of science?
A nice selling point Cathy, but that as mentioned above, is cult like behaviour IMHO. Any church who accepts such statements like what you just made, is cult orientated, not free thinking. If you as a Christian are telling me that any person who doesn't have faith in God must be ignorant fo science... please do explain, because I really do want to hear the cult logic to this one.

Beliefs and faith are personal, nothing to do with god. Believing in god in one thing, believing in yourself another. Believing in whether the colour pink is actually pink is another belief. Believing grass is green, is a living organism, and everything in life itself, is all personal, and not related to god or any other religious icon. These are facts of science, not of god or relation of science to god or any other being. Science contains proven and unproven theories. God, is an unproven theory, just like life after death. There are no FACTS to this, only personal beliefs and personal faith. What another believes or has faith has no bearing on any other person.

Right vs. wrong has nothing to do with faith; beliefs yes, faith no. Plenty of people who believe in god commit crimes, plenty of people who don't commit crimes. Why? Because they believed they could get away with it! They believed it was the right thing to do at that time! They believed it was the wrong thing to do, but choose to do it anyway! All personal beliefs, along with hundreds, if not thousands more.

Spiritual belief becomes part of a person overall beliefs, but when it becomes cultish, is when a persons overall beliefs are nothing other than spiritual. A minister uses commonsense in life, and does not believe 100% in God being that this mystical all powerful entity can fix anything. A minister knows that if he cuts his wrists with a knife, he will bleed out and die, and God is not going to help. So even the smartest minister would not have 100% faith in God to save them or take care of them, because if they did, it would be cultish, not religious.

One thing I have noticed is that those who believe in any sort of religion generally have a mental edge over those that don't.
I must actually disagree with this, because with what I see from working with people every day, is that those who attempt to put all their faith in God or other religious entity, don't actually do as well as another who gives themself faith, and believes in themself, and believes they can beat what they have. Sorry, but those I work with who are strong in religion don't do as well as those who aren't strong in religion, because they are often more determined to fight for their themselves, opposed to sitting around waiting for some belief to come save or help them. I must say, factually looking at people that I help, you couldn't be further from the truth mac.

Those who strongly believe in religion might put on a brave face, but when they look for therapy, that face doesn't cut the mustard anymore, and they fall apart, all often doubting their beliefs in God or other religion, because they haven't helped them as yet.

[anthony]

Oh, thought... there are even people here who are here, now with a different frame of mind about their own prior beliefs, for nothing more than discovering themselves that if they don't action things, if they don't take control, if they don't start believing in themselves more than any other, they are not going to get better, as they have already wasted decades or more waiting on religion or their minister telling them god will save them and take away their pain, blah blah... yer, once their dead and had a shit life and may as well have just been dead to begin with. Screw that... I don't believe in all this stuff, and I healed myself from belief in myself, faith in my own ability, not anothers. How... mental toughness is one key to it. The ability to mentally talk myself through things, pull things apart and fight for what I knew existed... my life awaiting me. God didn't help one bit... sorry!

[cookie]

ok, anthony, you misunderstood that statement. i was asking what he based his assumption on that christians were ignorant of science. i never said , nor never will that anyone is ignorant of something, that was my very point. He had made that statement, and the one about people basing their religion on how much money they had. NOT ME. i am not in a cult, lol, there are some out there, agreed. you feel free to believe the way you do, but you seem very defensive, maybe even a little offensive to let me do the same thing.

[Portabella]

I wish it was that way in all church's. I was raised Roman Catholic, went through years of Catacism (If I spelled it wrong sorry). I was forced by my Mother to continue in Catacism even after my Confirmation, when most other kids got to stop the learning process. I have questioned what has been taught to me since, well about 8 years old. Pissed my Mom off repeatedly. But....I realized that prayer got me really no where. I would miss confession on Saturday and refuse to take Communion as taught, only to see Hypocrites lined up for communion that were not with their wives at the bar the night before, if you get me. I really don't know exactly what I believe in, I believe in positive energy, which I guess is similar to prayer. But...I am a "show me" kind of person and sadly, I have never seem God or Jesus. Sorry.

[anthony]

Sorry Cathy, I was exerting my opinion over my interpretation of what you said in relation to religion and science. My mistake, not yours.

Religion and money though... the USA screwed that for their entire country, by putting that simple statement on money, "In God We Trust". A little cultish don't you think? Kind off makes it difficult to allow people to make their own decisions when they look at money every day with that statement upon it???

[cookie]

most people don't even know it's on the money, and the ones that do, don't care. do you really think a thing like that would influence someone? i think not. someone of any religion could use that slogan with no problem. it was a noble effort when done over 200yrs ago, but it's certainly not true any more. how many times when you are spending money, do you actually read anything more than the denomination (amount) on it? hmmmm? and no, it's not cultish... this country was founded on christian values, but freedom of religion. it is just a reflection of that. i wish it would have some effect on people, but it doesn't. mac was talking about people only believing in God if they were financially well of, i assume. very not true, though. wealthy people don't feel like they need or have time for God very often.

[Kathy]

I am a religious person. I believe in God, I'm active in my church and I tried to raise my children with the same ideals. But once children are grown they must make their own choices, mistakes and so forth, and decide for themselves what to believe. I made my own decisions as an adult, it's helped to shape who I am and I'm not about to deprive my children or other adults of that right to make up their own minds. I strongly disagree with "evangelizing" or whatever you wish to call it. Honestly it's quite annoying to be told you should believe in God or have faith, and that your life will be better if you do. The truth is, your life may not be any better with God in it. That is a myth. There are many God-fearing people who have tragic lives. First and foremost, one needs to believe in themself, and help themself, not simply rely on God or the church. Many people use the church as a crutch, relying on it totally and without questioning, and I believe that's wrong. For me the church is an addition to the life I have already created for myself. God helps those who help themselves as the saying goes. Especially someone with PTSD such as my niece, hates to be told "give faith a chance". My husband would like to force her to church, and has learned the hard way that it doesn't work. She needs to sort it all out for herself. And if she nevers comes back to the church but is happy and has a good life, then I am happy too. I couldn't ask for anything more than that.

[Loathe]

I wish I had faith in God. At one time I did, but with all the evil and suffering of the innocent that goes on throughout the world, I cannot maintain any such faith anymore. My mind does not comprehend how God would let man's free-will trump what's supposed to be His will. When you look at other societies and cultures, it's not difficult to see why the old explanation of religion as mearly a 'means to control the masses' is so valid.

This topic resonates deeply with me.

I just got back from an AA meeting. 2 days clean, bit over a year sober, but that doesn't really count does it :)

I've been in and out of the program since about 14. Stayed clean and sober for three years once. That ended while I was in Afghanistan. Really got trounced once I got home.

I have a hard time after the things I've seen, and the things I have done, accepting that a loving involved god could be real. I have a need for a higher power I don't seem to be able to make a personal contact with right now.

I was told to pray for faith, and thats what I'm going to do, I guess it's all I can do today.

Today I'm sober and clean. Today I didn't let PTSD hurt my family, my career or my friendships. I haven't always been able to say that.

[mac]

"I was told to pray for faith, and thats what I'm going to do, I guess it's all I can do today."

Pray for faith... that is my prayer too.