Domestic Violence in the Military

[Kathy]

As the subject deviated, I split this thread from the following : http://www.ptsdforum.org/thread6617.html

Re: "I still havent met anyone who has been abused because of their husbands PTSD and flashbacks."

I am not at all familiar with combat related PTSD, so I might be off base here. But I do have PTSD from abuse, and I've been battling it for a long, long time so I'm familiar with most of the symptoms. I might be wrong here, but I am pretty sure that having PTSD does not make your husband abuse you. Rather, it makes your husband very, very angry and rageful - but he still has a choice as to what to do with that rage. If I am wrong there, somebody, please correct me. I think it is important not to let him use his trauma as an excuse for bad behaviour towards you.


KM, you raise some interesting points. I know for a fact that, here in Canada at least, domestic violence is far more common among military families than in the civilian population. Now whether that is because domestic violence is simply more reported on military bases, or is a result of the military mindset, or whether PTSD and combat stress has anything to do with the statistics, I am uncertain. There is a bit of controversy over it. I know that when my husband suffered combat stress, he was abusive to myself and the children. However, he was never abusive prior to the combat stress, and has not been abusive since treatment for it, and it has been about 30 years now. Though as you say, perhaps it is simply the extreme anger and rage causing the abuse, rather than the illness itself. In any event, the bottom line for me is always, the abuser has a choice and they control their actions, regardless of stress or illness. They must be responsible for their actions.

[anthony]

I would say here in Australia that domestic violence is less in the military than the civilian populous, however; I would say it is reported more within military families as it is purely just not condoned here. If you abused your partner here and the military become aware of it, you will be punished by the military here administratively, which can hurt all in its own little way. Domestic violence in Australia is an issue, however; it is not as accepted here as it is within some parts of the world either.

KM, I think your points are very relevant, and whilst harsh as you say, they are accurate IMHO. Well said. He owns the abuse, regardless PTSD or not, he owns his actions. PTSD is a cause but that does not give a sufferer the excuse to abuse, it simply gives them a reason as to why. What they then do about that is within their control individually. I was emotionally abusive, never physically, when ill. It was my partner who was physically abusive to me. PTSD does not negate a person becoming physically abusive though.... as I believe, those attributes are either there or not within a person already.

I will be totally honest with you. I will say that the abuser owns their actions, and this one is no doubt going to get some flack. But it is proven that some partners, being the receiver, certainly provoke their partners to abuse them in some way. It is like my emotional abuse that I gave out, it would have provoked my partner in some aspects at times. Whilst she owned her physical abuse to me, I owned my emotional abuse to her. When I removed being emotionally abusive she was still physically abusive. Some times people may just not be compatible is what I am trying to say, in that two people can be abusive together, however; a more compatible partner may then remove abuse completely, both physical and emotional simply because one or both are not provoking the other in spite, pain or frustration. Habits forms parts of this and other factors. A person can heal, learn and grow all they want, but if both parties aren't achieving this then it can often become a waste of time for a relationship, as one will still tip toe round or be frightened from past behaviours, etc, which may then re-provoke the abuser to just adopt their old ways as atleast then the other person knows what to expect.

Abuse has a vicious cycle, and it must be broken on both fronts, not just one or the other, as both have pain that must be dealt with and healed if the relationship is to survive.

[Jim]

Well. My opinion, from my experience - family violence is indeed reported far more often on the base. However. Not because it occurs more often than amongst civilians, but because it's harder to hide. Much more accountability, much more honesty. You get caught being dishonest and your in the shit.

Jim.

[Kathy]

I will be totally honest with you. I will say that the abuser owns their actions, and this one is no doubt going to get some flack. But it is proven that some partners, being the receiver, certainly provoke their partners to abuse them in some way.

Well you may get some flack Anthony as you say, however I agree with you and have found this to be true, with Jim and myself definitely. I also saw this in my social work profession, more frequently than not. There is a definite difference between those who abuse each other due to extreme stress, alcoholism, lack of communication skills and other factors, and those who abuse because they are predators. In the case of predators, I would say that one party is indeed a victim, however in many cases it is a two-way street as you mention. Counseling and healing for both is definitely necessary. Jim and I did so, I don't believe our marriage would have survived otherwise.

[anthony]

You get caught being dishonest and your in the shit.
Yep, thats about the size of it in any military organisation. At the lower level you may get one warning when caught being deceptive, though even that will have an impact on your promotion. Get caught doing wrong, deception, deceit or anything that could bring the military to disrepute at a higher rank, your arse is grass for the remainder of your military history. These type of things in the military are where people sign, seal and deliver their maximum rank and much more. A solider may think they get away with something, but within a military environment spouses talk, and it always gets back to the chain of command eventually. This is why I would typically disagree that domestic violence is higher in the military here in Australia, but I have no idea about
America as domestic violence is on a much grander scale their than here.

[batgirl]

This is really interesting, I never thought about it affecting maximum rank, but that totally makes sense. I grew up on military bases, and one of my friends had a father who beat his wife, and then after he left his wife, beat his new girlfriend. He remained in the military and as far as I know, never got charged with much. I always thought that was very unjust. But he started out with my dad, I think they were in basic together (Right, Dad? You know who I'm talking about...), and Dad became a senior officer eventually, whereas this guy, I can't recall, but I know his rank was very low and it stayed the same for years. It never occurred to me before though that his low rank might have something to do with his behaviour.

[jolene]

I know with the Corps it definitely effects their promotions, at the very least. Guys will get passed over time and time again if they have domestic violence in their reacords. Depending on the situation, results can be a dishonorable discharge, which I think is appropriate. Unfortunately, the strict policies on it can be a double edged sword for the guys. Example & true story: an E-5, married, living on base, having a get together at his house. His wife and himself are both drinking. Wife gets mad and tries to stab him with a kitchen knife. When he tries to take the knife from her, he cuts her on accident. PMO arrives, he gets slapped with a DV and it goes in his jacket. I'm not sure how that turned out in the end but the incident is still on paper with the military.

Also. Many women are vindictive. They will get upset with their husbands and give a false report of DV or adultery ONLY TO get their husbands in trouble (adultery is also something the Corps has no tolerance for) so I'm not sure how accurate statistics are on military abuse.

[Jim]

It never occurred to me before though that his low rank might have something to do with his behaviour.

Correct Evie. That was the main reason.

Jolene - good points. All true. Yep, spouses can be vindictive. Believe that was what Anthony and my wife were driving at here. Kathleen and I both abused and provoked each other, that's a fact. Kathleen will attest to that. Then, we both smartened up. Worked together on problems. Hence we are still married.

Jim.

[batgirl]

adultery is also something the Corps has no tolerance for

Oh really? I didn't know that. I would have assumed that would be just be a matter of personal belief or whatever. That's not a rule in Canada, at least I don't think it is?

Holy I just googled it and it says adultery in the US military is an offense you can get court martialed for. Wow. It's not like that in the Canadian military though.

[anthony]

Yep, Kerrie and I certainly fell into that routine also Jim.... the only difference, I worked through it and ceased it for the destructive behaviour it was, Kerrie didn't, hence why we are no longer married. Kerrie had it though before she met me.... I though I could change that, I too became destructive due to my own PTSD.... and well, again, results are the present. A relationship just is not easy if one or both parties are abusing the other.

[Marlene]

Holy I just googled it and it says adultery in the US military is an offense you can get court martialed for.

Yep...it's against the UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice). That's the rule book all branches of the military follow.

From a female's point of view domestic abuse is something that female soldiers were encouraged to not report. Granted I was in quite a while ago and I really hope it has changed since I left the army.

I was physically and emotionally abused by a b/f I had (we were both soldiers). The advice given to me by my SGTs was to just leave him and pretend it didn't happen. Basically it's what I did.

Talking to a lot of females from all of the branches, we all said the same thing...the two things we had to deal with most (and were basically told to shut up any complaints) were physical abuse b/f's and husbands and sexual harassment. If you reported either you were branded a troublemaker and that rep. went with you to your next unit.

I REALLY hope things have changed.

Lisa

[Kathy]

Good points Lisa. When I was serving, I was already with Jim, so I had nothing to fear in that regard. I do recall though when Jim was drinking, his commanding officer warned him about hurting me or the children, so no cover ups in my personal experience, though I definitely heard of others less fortunate than myself. In any event that was simply eons ago! Practically the stone ages according to my children. :rolleyes:

I am uncertain about current domestic violence cover ups, however I do know the Canadian military has had some similar problems with sexual harassment quite recently. I gather the powers that be are working to improve the situation, though how quickly, who knows.

[msktaylor0207]

wow i missed alot from the past couple days... i can understand how someone who hasnt been in my situation could think otherwise, but i think people have misconceptions about how things that i post come across. and that might be my fault... ive never used my husbands PTSD as an excuse. because its not. and never has been. its hard for anyone that hasnt lived under this roof, to get the whole story of my life experiences with my husbands PTSD. and its hard to post it all of course. 4 years is a long time, and i dont have that much time to write everything that is goin on. but i definatly feel misunderstood. and sometimes feel looked down upon. which isnt the best feeling in the world, when im only tring to get support. i dont expect anyone to understand. but even with things i dont agree with or just dont know about, i dont want someone to feel like their life is all wrong and shameful. that doesnt help anyone get better. and definatly not motivating.

depending on situations, the military does take action when it comes to DV. however, officers, drs, counselors, and anyone with enough authority, had a base meeting and all agreed that my husbands tendancy to abuse and his mental health issues was due to untreated PTSD. and did not punish him. he can be promoted if it was time, he was not court marshalled. he was not punished whatsoever by the military. he does not even have DV on his record. it was downgraded to offensive harrassment because of his mental status and lack of proper treatment of PTSD. you can all argue about it, but thats the fact with my sitatuation. his actions of hitting is soley his responsibility. and hes always taken responsibility for that.

[Kathy]

but i definatly feel misunderstood. and sometimes feel looked down upon. which isnt the best feeling in the world, when im only tring to get support.

I am not certain who you are referring to msktay, however I apologize if I have personally made you feel misunderstood. That was never my intent, nor do I look down upon you in the slightest. In fact I relate to your situation in some ways, some things you discuss are much like what happened between my husband and myself when we were newly married. Unfortunately, the written word does not always transmit nearly as well as speaking face to face.

I made this into a new thread as I felt it was deviating from its original intent of supporting you. Much of the discussion in this thread has simply been about domestic violence in general, and not meant to refer to you personally.

[msktaylor0207]

kathy, i dont think anything you said was what upset me. i think responses and comments from people who maybe havent read my other posts or maybe just comments from people who cant relate, so its hard for them to begin to think in a different mind set. i think just comments as a whole maybe. if i had something near me, to where face to face support was possible i would definatly choose that then writing. and maybe i should look for more support from friends who are here and dont make me feel judged. (which no kathy, you have not made me feel that way) you hav always showed compassion and the willingness to learn and try to look at it from all angles and views. and know that its someones actual experience, and thats its not about right or wrong.

[Kathy]

Ah OK, I am glad I have not upset you. However I am still a bit confused, are you upset by things said in this particular thread, or in your thread? Most of the people who posted in this thread have military experiences of their own and were posting general opinions rather than speaking to you specifically. That is why I split the thread in the first place, so you would not take things personally, as most of what has been discussed is not personal to yourself.

[msktaylor0207]

the specific part that was quoted from my post makes it look like we use PTSD as an excuse and that it is the CAUSE of abuse. which i dont think is what my original post is portraying. and i tried to explain it better since im not very good about creating a clear picture. so when thats the only part of the post that is quoted to the question that someone had about it and then split it becomes the topic in question. then in turn, is when i take it personally. which im sure hardly anyone knew who wrote it. but i and some others do.

PTSD takes over such a broad range of people. it doesnt care what color, age, gender, ethnic background you are and no 2 people will react the same way even with the same experiences. and with enough military training combined with PTSD is asking for a rage of violence. not everyone will experience this, but my husbands unit alone.. weve seen all that we needed to see to know violence and PTSD can be linked together. no doubt about it. it doesnt make it an excuse. but imagine you are who you are right now or at your worst times in your PTSD road of life and are on more then 20 different meds, and you have a flashback. could you 100% say you could control your actions or words? i cant speak for myself, because i have never done that, but ive seen it. i personally think emotional and verbal abuse is so much more worse then physical. (to a point or certain extent)

[Kathy]

It was certainly not intended to point the finger at anyone. Sometimes it is difficult to split a thread "cleanly" so to speak. I debated for a time on how to split the thread. It did need to be split however, as it was definitely getting off topic. I did notice however you explained yourself quite well in your support thread, well done.

Sometimes when we write things here, others, especially those with PTSD, are triggered by what is written as it reminds them of their own situation and trauma. They then take things far too personally. They over identify so to speak. I believe that may have been the case in this situation, that some identified with what you were saying, however judged it from their own trauma experiences rather than realizing your situation is very different. It is easy to do so.

I agree with you regarding what is done during a flashback. My husband, when he had combat stress, needed to be woken up from the feet rather than the head, as he would attack me or the children in his sleep. That is not abuse, simply the combination of hypervigilance and his military training. My daughter also, she has PTSD, and when her illness was untreated, there were times when she would have horrible violent fits. Occasionally someone would get hurt by accident during these fits. I do not consider that abuse in the traditional sense either. She certainly did not intend nor wish to harm anyone, she was quite out of control. And I agree also, emotional and verbal abuse are far worse in many respects!

[2Peanut]

Holy I just googled it and it says adultery in the US military is an offense you can get court martialed for. Wow. It's not like that in the Canadian military though.
Yes you can get a court martial for it. I was in the Navy and maybe 10 years ago there was a story on the news about a woman in the Air Force who was given a General Discharge rather than an Honorable Discharge because she was dating a married man. She didn't know he was married, but she still got in trouble for it. In boot camp I remember reading in the code of military justice that you could get in trouble even if you don't pay your bills since paying bills on time is written in the cmj.

[Nicolette]

I know the military to be harsh and regimented but if that woman did not know the man was married, I think it was unfair.

[Jim]

We don't have that law in the Canadian military. Think it's solely the Americans.

Jim.

[pastrychefarmywife]

wow. ok, as far as i know, if you get charged with DV, in the us army, they take you out of the quarters, if your married, for 72 hrs. then the soldier, gets counceling, anger management, and its soley based on the commander of his unit or company, weither he gets any 'bad things' as rank taken, loss of pay etc....yes you can get in trouble for not paying your bills, and also, if you dont have a family care plan, if you get deployed, like someone to take care of your kid,etc... ( it would be me in our case that takes the 'caregiver' if hubby would get deployed again.

kathy, hubby also has those wonderful flashbacks and nightmares, i too have learned to wake him from his feet, never touchinghis arms or face again! also in one flashback, i was sleeping and he just grabed me like he was going to hug me, but then started chocking me! i had to nail him in the ribs to get him to let go. he never knew he did it. and i f i haden't payed attention to my aunt telling me about her hubby doing that when he came back from WW2, i would have flipped out!