Sympathy - It Is Creeping Back Here

[anthony]

I want to remind members, mostly those who are new here, check sympathy at the door before coming upon this forum. Sympathy does not, will not, never has and never will be useful for helping PTSD. If you want sympathy then you want people to feel sorry for you for the trauma you have suffered, you don't actually want to get better.

If you want to get better, if you want to learn how to heal, one of the first things is to move from denial, which includes garnishing sympathy or desiring it, and moving towards facing your greatest past fears; your trauma.

Many new members arrive here daily, and you need to keep this in check if you want to get better. Sympathy only pulls you and others down to a lower place, none which is accepted or tolerated here. Please be careful as there is a fine line between sympathy and empathy, two very different matters. Empathy is given, sympathy is wanted.

[Lucky Laser]

So, instead of "oh I feel so sorry for you, pity pity pity," we want something more like placing ourselves in the other's shoes and sharing with them, I think.

I had to look it up. :p

[anthony]

Bingo.... said well.

[nic]

While I totally agree that those who are only interested in seeking sympathy should "check it at the door," I also wonder where that "fine line" is.

I am sure I'm not alone when I say that when I post here, I do appreciate words of encouragement. I think it is very difficult to decipher what is sympathy-seeking versus simply expressing emotion(s).

I would hope that it isn't anyone's intention to "bring others down," but at the same time, I hope that members aren't discouraged from posting because they're afraid to be labled a sympathy-seeker.

We all have our ups and downs, and I think both should be acknowledged equally. I, for one, don't really have anyone to talk to about the PTSD and its symptoms on a daily (or even weekly) basis. I often go through my day with the semblance of the happy-go-lucky person I wish to be. (Now you may think that it is best to be open and honest with emotions, but this just isn't possible for some people, especially if they go to work and need to appear functional on a daily basis.) Therefore, this forum, for some (including me), is the only outlet to express the pain, sadness, fear, or whatever else we may be going through.

[pandora]

I know lately I have appeared quite needy here but it is really in relation to my particular living circumstances not my trauma and I do try and give help when I can.

[Awakening]

If you want to get better, if you want to learn how to heal, one of the first things is to move from denial, which includes garnishing sympathy or desiring it, and moving towards facing your greatest past fears; your trauma.

This is quite a timely post for me.

All my life I've had this bizarre fantasy of a mother figure feeling sorry for me and/or rescuing me. I always wondered what it meant.

Then when PTSD first started to hit almost three years ago now (where has that time gone), this 'fantasy' intensified. I mean it's a daily thing. Now I feel really embarassed posting this but here goes.

I have constantly imagined my therapist, an older friend, my female boss, authority figures hugging me and telling me they are sorry. The fantasy took different forms i.e. I imagined getting injured and people visiting me in hospital, or I'm kidnapped and when released I get sympathy. In the end though the fantasies are all the same. A maternal figure taking sympathy on me.

I did not realise this was related to denial though. I thought I was through with denial. Damn it!

But this past week I've been thinking about the fantasy and how would that help if it did come to reality. If the whole world started feeling sympathy for me would it really help? How much empathy from my therapist would be enough? Then I read some stuff about 'victim mentality' on the net, and I'm starting to realise that no amount of sympathy will ever help. And whilst empathy is a nice support during the 'healing' process it ain't a cure.

I still haven't got my head around why I'm continuing to fantasy about sympathy though. Because it hurts to think about it, so not sure why I'm doing it, it makes me sink further into depression.

Anyway, I'm rambling & sorry Anthony taking your thread off on a tangent about me. But I think it's a valid point about sympathy.

If you find yourself desiring sympathy (like me!) maybe we need to scratch the surface to find out why?

[Claire]

Nic, the difference is between empathy and sympathy. Nothing wrong at all with expressing yourself, however this forum is for people wanting to get better so we need to help push each other. Understand and emphasise, yes, but also to strive for change and encourage improvement in each other. Not to stand still and get bogged down in self pity and depression and all the other delights that PTSD has to offer.

[She Cat]

I think wanting sympathy is a way of being recognized when no one ever has before. You are hurting to the core, and to bring attention to yourself helps to ease that for a time being. Also during that time you don't have to think about your problems and issue. It takes the focus off of those.

It might be too that it would just be nice is someone else could just take the pain away. I think many of us here are guilty of this. While it dosen't work long term, it does help ease some of the shit.

I wonder also if it is just another bad coping skill we develop????

[anthony]

Awakening - Valid points that do not require apology.

Claire - Well said...

Wendy - Have some reputation, that was absolutely outstanding and dead on accurate. Sympathy is a way to be recognized when your self esteem is already shot to shit. It is a bad (negative) coping method.

[She Cat]

Thanks Anthony... I knew that because I am guilty of it myself......Have used it more than once in my life.

[nic]

Quote from Claire:

"Understand and emphasise, yes, but also to strive for change and encourage improvement in each other."

I agree 100% with this statement, Claire. Now I haven't been on this forum for very long, (approx. 2 months?), but from what I've seen, it seems like pretty much everyone does encourage others, offer hope, provide suggestions, etc. So far, I haven't seen anyone here who is just out for themselves or just pity-seekers. From what I've read, even though everyone does have their off days, they are also quick to provide insight and feedback to others as well as take insight and feedback themselves.

I guess I'm just afraid that by writing about a difficult time, situation, or whatever, that may be interpreted as pity-seeking when, in fact, it is just a cathartic release that is needed in order heal.

[cherryblossom]

I guess I'm just afraid that by writing about a difficult time, situation, or whatever, that may be interpreted as pity-seeking when, in fact, it is just a cathartic release that is needed in order heal.

I agree with this point, nic. I often feel a need to 'vent', but worry that it will be considered attention seeking. When it is far from that - I hate getting attention, and would much rather hide in the background. But sometimes it's just feelings that I feel I need to write down, because I don't have anyone to talk to about such things.

I also find it quite hard to give advice. I think that is a self-esteem issue, in that I don't believe my opinion is worth anything...... but I am trying to improve in this and trying to give a little, instead of just taking.

[Lucky Laser]

Perhaps part of it is that we are giving too much sympathy? The more I think about it I haven't seen a horrible amount of "woe is me give me pity" posts (I've seen a lot of strength around here!) but I have seen more of the one line "sorry, that sucks..." to the new people who are coming...

[morgan]

Gawd, so many things here spoke to me it's hard to respond because I get so overwhelmed. Let's see, Wendy you definitely hit the nail on the head, Awakening too for that matter. I have always felt the need to be recognized. I have always felt invisible. When I first started burning and cutting myself it was because I wanted people to know I was in a tremendous amount of pain. Later, when I saw peoples reaction to it, it became more of a private issue. I didn't like the way people were responding but, I just wasn't ready to quit.

Now I have the desire to relate and be related to and that has caused me to reach out more... especially on this forum. In the last month/month in ahalf I have acquired 13 friends on this forum. This is such a big deal to me because I waited four months and watched how people posted and what they had to say before I invited them to my friends list. Some of them invited me but my answers to them were based on the same evaluation as the others. What kind of people did they appear to be... All seemed to have one thing in common... They cared. They had their own struggles but, they cared. That is empathy at it's best. I don't need no one to feel sorry for me. I just need you to give a shit.

Pandora, thank you in particular for encouraging me in my diary. It is initially why I took such an interest in you. I consider you a friend. Everything will work out for you, I just know it will.

Take care all, Morgan

[Lucky Laser]

They had their own struggles but, they cared. That is empathy at it's best. I don't need no one to feel sorry for me. I just need you to give a shit.

That just reminded me... a few weeks ago my Mom asked what she could do for me, and I gave her the simplest answer I could give anyone (and sort of surprised myself)... "Just understand that its hard."

[linasmom]

Awakening - I too was touched by your post. I can't even count how many years I looked for a rescuer. Which brings me to something else about your post - I don't really see what you are looking for as sympathy, I think instead it is a rescuer and I don't find those things synonymous. I never got the feeling from your post that you wanted someone to "pity you", but instead, to be there for you when you needed help (look at your examples: being in the hospital, getting kidnapped). For me, whenever I fantasized about that person, in the fantasy they always "seemed" like a rescuer, but in retrospect, I wasn't looking for a savior, I was simply looking for someone to love me like I thought that my mother should have loved me. I hope any of that made sense to anyone else except for me.

Being there for someone does not mean feeling sorry for them.

Best,
Rachel

[Cindy]

My two cents,

Sympathy to me is when someone recognizes our sadness or situation but can not necessarily understand the pain that you are in.

Empathy on the other hand, means to me, the person who is responding to your pain understands it and quite possibly experienced it at one time.

So the key difference to me is the level of understanding and therefore the response will be different on the coping end.

Hope I made it clear for you to understand my meanings. Cindy

[pandora]

Thank you Morgan...I hope to be able to give more assistace once my life settles down...thank you for caring.

[anthony]

Nic, you should never worry about venting, instead you should actually use the word "Vent" in your title, as often people do when venting. This is text based, so it comes with no emotion. Venting can be easily interpreted for sympathy, absolutely. Topics like this help new members understand how to best vent without looking like sympathy, being to ensure the words are clearly used in headings and even text, ie. begin the vent with something like, "I need to vent this out because....."

This topic is already achieving learning for newer members. This topic is not new, do a search and you will discover. I raise this point every so often because new members arrive and fall into habits that are not new here, quite existing, though also closed down before they get out of hand. An ongoing thing really.... and no, a sticky nor FAQ does it as people just do not read everything before posting.

That is another topic though, being to get new members to reference existing threads and posts to point one another towards for ease of reading, discussion, etc... all of which has often been talked about here.

[goingonhope]

use the word "Vent" in your title, as often people do when venting. This is text based, so it comes with no emotion. Venting can be easily interpreted for sympathy, absolutely.

Hey, this is a great thread and discussion started here.

Oh' and as for the above suggestion, good one because I know I vent and don't often turn around and write -vent. Now likely, I will more often.

As for what's the differences between sympathy and empathy, there is no better way I've discovered for learning something of interest, but then to research it more thouroughly. So earlier this thread, inspired me to do just that. Thanks. There's also great understanding of what is empathy and its distinction to sympathy all over the internet.

Again, Great thread!

[sunnydaze]

To me looking for sympathy doesn't exist. When tramatized as children many can relate to our parents or perpertrators not having sympathy for us. So why look for something we know little of? I think, we like to tell our stories to get it off our chests and feel good for the moment. Many of us have nobody to talk to or don't feel comfortable telling them our deep dark secrets. On a forum we can say these things without feeling awkward or looking someone in the eyes. We don't have to lie or make our stories more than they are. Some may have been through alot less than the next person but to them they have gone through the worst experience anyone can imagine and there are others who have gone through much worse than ourselves that don't see it as bad. We are all individuals who perceive our pain in our own minds, no 2 are alike.

I seem to stay in the child mold more than accepting things as an adult. However, due to my overcaring nature of people, I hurt for them more than I do for myself. I do not like seeing people in pain but ignore my own many times. I enjoy helping others but usually get hurt for caring to much. Maybe, this is my way of forgetting my own problems for the time being. My mom use to always say, I was over-emotional. Yet, no help was given me when I went through my abuses or understanding due to my going through abuse and her kind of knowing about it but turned her head. Alcohol was too important for her more so than her 7 children. We have all survived in different ways but all very much dysfuntional. We are the ones paying the price not the perpetrators. Thank you Anthony for this forum!
sunnydaze

[Seeking_Nirvana]

I think sympathy makes one into a victim and I can not and will not tolerate being a victim. I still can't understand how I used to see myself as a victim, but moving on....

I'm a survivor and all I want here is understanding, seasoned with a little advice from time to time.

Tammy

[anthony]

I agree hope, this thread will garnish many outcomes IMO.... being the exact idea. A greater understanding for all.

[NotDepressed]

Should we not offer sympathetic words to new people to make them feel welcome, though? When a new person posts about an experience and people just reply with their own personal experiences, it sometimes appears that they aren't listening to the OP at all.

Maybe I just don't understand. What's an example of sympathy that is problematic?

[Cowgirl]

NotDepressed,

I think if a person says, "yes, I think i understand what you are going through as I've experienced X and here's how I dealt with that", it might be helpful. How the responder dealt with their similar problem may or may not work for the original poster, but it gives them another way of looking at their situation. Knowing that there are different ways of looking at a situation is helpful in thinking outside the boxes we all find ourselves in from time to time so we can learn to cope better. Just a thought.

Cowgirl

[anthony]

Sharing one's experience that is relative to what another is saying is absolutely the optimal way in which to show your listening.... it is a response to what is called reflective listening.... though slightly different. Reflective listening is you respond to what a person says in a brief way of what they said, so they understand you are listening. To share your experience which is similar / same as what you read, is a way of responding that you listened because your response reflects what they are saying of their experience. To learn is to share experience, ways and methods that work for another may help someone else. They may not, but they just may work for another. Experience is the greatest thing you could ever share with another here....

[spiritofnow]

Hmmmmm!

Some honesty from me!

When I saw this thread it looked and seemed bolder and brighter than any of the other threads on the whole of that page. It stood so far out that it was almost waving a flag at me. And here is the honesty, it felt like a red flag to a bull, and I wanted to dig my hooves in and charge at that reg flag as defiantly as I could. I wanted to charge it down and deny it's (the threads), intentions!

However, I mentally and emotinally stood back and waited to assimilate my feelings ( I feel first think much later), now I am self aware concerning this I try to be adult and stand back first!

I pondered! Why did that thread wave a red flag at me?......And my honest answer is because it was a trigger. It triggered the negative internal chatter I have about myself. You know, I am pathetic, stupid, on the pity pot, all the feelings associated with self-pity and my own self-hatred. So that thread was tapping into my negative thought patterns, and it was as if it was only addressed to me, rather than the whole forum. As if Anthony was only addressing me - I am sure others' have felt the same, it's part of our negative thinking right?

Today, I can see what Anthony is suggesting. However, I guess the complexities that we all have in every day life concerning communicating our thoughts and ideas are that although many of us use the same words we can speak a different language. I mean, words are emotive aren't they? Some words we identify with, and others' we don't some are like a red flag to a bull! And I guess that recognising this is Okay!

At the end of the day if we are all brutally honest of course we want sympathy, it is part of feeling validated; feeling like the pain that you have suffered is real and is as terrible as it feels at times. We may also shun sympathy because it again taps into our negative thought patterns concerning ourselves. Receiving sympathy can reinforce the negative chatter we hold concerning who we are and how we are dealing with our pain (like we don't deserve it or it makes us feel more pathetic?)

So if we accept that by merely being here on the forum we are all highlighting that we have sympathy for ourselves and each other.
The key part of this, I feel, is that we have to be constructive with our sympathy. We have to use each other as a sounding board to bounce ideas off concerning how we can combat how we are feeling rather than just validating each others' pain. Don't we validate the pain of each person we respond to by answering their posts and trying to give them a different perspective anyway?

The forum is made up of many ingerdients, empathy, insight, compassion, understanding, support, knowledge and all of these come with a pinch of sympathy, I guess a little to much of this ingredient and the whole thing will be spoiled.

Spirit x

[upstream]

OK granted, but can I keep giving sympathy when it is completely unrelated to PTSD? For example, giving sympathy to a carer for a situation that doesn't even involve the PTSD sufferer they are caring for?

[spiritofnow]

Upstream, I beleive you should act as you wish. I also believe that Anthony is referring to sympathy on here as a resource that should not be used in isolation. Rather it should be used in conjunction with other human resources that enable each individual to be proactive in their recovery etc.

Sympathy is a valuable and human quality, but with everything in this life there is always a need for balance. Be as you are and feel!

Sympathy on here was addressed in order for us to evaluate how effective we are for each other, IMHO. It is just one person's opinion. I always try to take a little of what speaks to me and then challenge myself with the rest.

Spirit x

[upstream]

Thanks Spirit!

[spiritofnow]

You are welcome!
Glad I could help, Upstream :-)

Spirit x

[monkee]

Is wanting validation that what happened to you was wrong the same thing as wanting sympathy?

I used to have the desire to be rescued, but as I have gotten older I hate the loss of control over myself and my life that being rescued would cost me. I see sympathy as being a pitiable creature... I do not want to be pitied. At the same time there are some people that seem to think it is ok to treat me anyway they like, and sometimes I feel the need for validation that what I have been through was wrong and undeserved.

I suppose I wonder if this need for validation that what happened to me as being wrong is a search for pity. I know logically that it was wrong, and some of the behavior that is going on is still wrong...

[Trent]

This is kind of a scary post for first timers to read ... maybe i need to reread it. What I'm hearing is pretty much like I've heard every where else ... Get over it...no sympathy here... you should have done something about it.

I'm not really looking for sympathy, but I'd hate to think I'm entering an arena with more "get over it" thinking. If i could get over it, i would have already done that. I'm trying to get an understanding of this thing and wanting to konw whether ptsd might be an underlying cause of some other things that I must escape.

I hope that I'm wrong about this. The others replies seemed to agree, so maybe i've just got the first timers fear of being rejected.

[NotDepressed]

See, I think it's helpful to offer, maybe not sympathy, but validation to newcomers. It might make them feel more comfortable about sharing their problems, which are not always easy to discuss when you read all of the posts by people who have been here forever and almost sound like professional therapists themselves. It's intimidating. On the other hand, I do see where just sympathy without constructive advice is a waste of bandwidth.:think:

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Hi Not,

Please don't let the advice of others intimidate you. I'm sure I've given good advice to people from time to time. But on the flip side, I'm not always able to take my own advice that I give out.

Things are not always as they seem!

Peace
Tammy

[NotDepressed]

Thanks, Tammy. When it comes to accepting advice, I'll try to keep an open mind and try what I think will work.

[Auburngirl]

I wonder about validation too. With trauma associated with abuse there is often a lot of forced denial and being told nothing ever happened and it's all in your head, and why are you reacting etc.... So saying yes, something bad did happen and it's normal to be upset can be pretty important.

My understanding of empathy is that it involves relating and sharing the feeling of the experience, where as sympathy is more uni-directional. In a place like this it seems that empathy would be the default as we've all been through something that would likely enable us to relate to the others.

[2quilt]

Monkee,
I would say that validation is what we all need, but sympathy, as explained to me by Darling Husband, is the "Oh, poor me!" attitude. My husband gave me an example of a person who used to be friends with us, who constantly talked about how she was not thin enough (at 115 pounds), that she didn't have enough money to take her dying dog in for life-saving surgery (she had plenty of money), how she could not come to parties because she would have allergic reactions to the dust in that house, and how the world had let her down all her life. She never said one positive thing about any circumstance. When she got into a bad situation, she just complained about it, but did nothing to get herself out of that situation.

I used to tell my husband that she would have a tantrum on the floor, crap her pants, then whine about the mess and smell. She constantly wanted sympathy from everyone who would listen to her. She felt like she was waist deep in quicksand. Instead of trying to get herself out, she felt that she had no control over her life, waiting to drown, saying, "Woe is me." This is learned helplessness.

I am just getting to the point where I understand the difference between empathy, sympathy and validation. Until a few days ago, I used empathy and sympathy interchangeably, but this forum has stopped that.

Empathy is positive, and validation is positive, in my mind. I have to remember these definitions and examples so that I don't accidentally say the wrong thing, or get misinterpreted. The idea is that we do have control over our lives.

[anthony]

Hi Trent, far from the "get over it" attitude or approach here, quite the opposite.... just not the sympathy route though as an alternative. Empathy.... action.... not get over it or sympathetic approach.

[monkee]

Monkee,
I would say that validation is what we all need, but sympathy, as explained to me by Darling Husband, is the "Oh, poor me!" attitude.

I am just getting to the point where I understand the difference between empathy, sympathy and validation. Until a few days ago, I used empathy and sympathy interchangeably, but this forum has stopped that.

Empathy is positive, and validation is positive, in my mind. I have to remember these definitions and examples so that I don't accidentally say the wrong thing, or get misinterpreted. The idea is that we do have control over our lives.

I do not think that these words are interchangeable, they mean different things, but sympathy is not what people here seem to think it is. I am a real word person. Sympathy means

a. A relationship or an affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other.
b. Mutual understanding or affection arising from this relationship or affinity.
2. a. The act or power of sharing the feelings of another.
b. A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration. Often used in the plural. See Synonyms at pity (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pity).

3. Harmonious agreement; accord: He is in sympathy with their beliefs.
4. A feeling of loyalty; allegiance. Often used in the plural: His sympathies lie with his family.
5. Physiology A relation between parts or organs by which a disease or disorder in one induces an effect in the other.

Now one of those meanings does go along with the word pity, the rest do not. Empathy is just a stronger form of sympathy to me and according to the dictionary

em·pa·thy (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.gifmhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifphttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-thhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif)n.1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pity).
2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.


I suppose what people really mean is that there are some that come here and they are having a pity party (I tend to isolate myself when I am in that mode, and I do not seek validation because my validation of those feelings is in my aloneness). There are people who come here seeking pity, not sympathy. There are people who want others to feel sorry for them, they do not seek to be understood, but seek to remain pitied... no one understands them, no one has ever had it as rough as them... yadda yadda yadda. I do not see that as seeking sympathy, according to the words as they are defined. That is not seeking understanding, commiseration, or affinity... if people were seeking those things, they would be seeking sympathy.

I know there are people posting here that have suffered terrible ordeals that make my story look like a cake walk, but I am to the point where I see the forest even though I am surrounded by trees. It is not what happened to me, it is how my brain responded to it that caused my situation, and as my son said... my brain coped the only way it could under the circumstances. I have to look at the content of what caused it, but the real trouble is how my brain processes stress. What is to pity about that? I am to be no more pitied than someone with cancer.

I have sight pity a time or two in my life, dreamed of rescue, but I do not think that is unique to those of us that have this condition... most people dream of rescue when we are unhappy, most of us have a pity party when we feel attacked or put upon. We are all just human after all.

[2quilt]

Trent,
You are not being rejected here; we welcome you! You have come to the right place to find others with PTSD. We don't tell anyone to just get over it. We are here to learn from each other how to heal. Welcome to the forum!

[sunnydaze]

:naughty:I have shyed away from this forum. It is nerve racking when you get scared of what you are writing and have to worry if you will be rejected or returned to moderation where one is watched constantly. It just reinterates feeling bad again about yourself. Feeling rejected by a forum that you were told by your T to get involved with and than being bounced out. I agree, we should stay on the positive side but when going through troubling times we revert backwards for awhile. I re-read my own replies before sending it and again after I sent it and don't see anything wrong with what I wrote for maybe days or weeks later. At the time it sounded right and good.

I have been feeling very uneasy and tense lately about this. I feel like crying. If we wrote dwelling all the time only about our past than I could see it being sympathy as one only wants everyone to know what they went through each time a new one enters the forum or joins. This would definitely be looking for only sympathy. Looking for sympathy would be like re-telling our story to everyone we write to.

When I write, I than feel like I am taking away from someone else's story by using the '" I would do things this way." I know what people mean by telling a more positive way of handling things and helping each other out but should we be sentenced for such a crime as sympathy?
sunnydaze:naughty:

[Lucky Laser]

What about the trauma diaries? I got the impression that those, being more personal, could be the one place where nobody has to fear anything they say; even if it reeks of sympathy at least its contained in that area. I recognize that even there it can get out of control, but it just seems there is less of a worry there.

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Trent and Sunnydaze and new members, if you stick around you will understand the reasoning that is used here. I didn't understand it at first and I was ready to leave because I found a few things to trigger me right off the bat. Mostly the editors were mean LOL, but I don't feel that way anymore.

When I first joined I was already in a disagreement with an editor. I thought what she said was harsh, and told her and other people that their opinions were mean and hurtful. But that was their opinion of the subject and I respect everyone's opinion. I still think that some of the things that were stated were harsh, but I got over it and moved on into healing here.

After sticking it out I realized that it wasn't personal toward me, it was to challenge me and help me understand a different way of thinking. It made me stronger and able to deal with other issues in my life.

Some of these threads will trigger us and make us wonder if anyone here even likes us at all. I was certain that no one liked me after joining and then immediately arguing with some one over an opinion. (One that is not popular in society) and I thought no one here was going to respond to my posts or help me but I was wrong.

I assure you I like everyone here and I've been triggered a ton of times by posts. That is the point of coming here so that you learn coping skills out in the real world. If we can't tolerate what people do in here how can we expect to cope out in the real world. Not everyone here is going to like you and that should be OK with you because personalities clash and that's the way it is.

This is not a hand holding forum and I'm glad. I thought that was what it was for while I was posting and learning to heal. I found out in time that wasn't the case and it only made me stronger and more able to deal with outside issues that I wasn't dealing with properly.

It is human nature to want to be liked and it's scary joining a forum and worrying about how others will perceive you. But if you can stick it out here eventually you won't care what anyone here thinks of you, and it won't scare you to be put in moderation for a mistake.

Every time I come in here I have to pay attention to what I do because I have ADD. I know I keep making editorial mistakes over and over but if I get put into moderation over one of them, I bet I will remember not to do it again. I'm not certain if what I'm posting here is "off topic" which could get me into moderation. If it does then I will be in moderation and I will realize not to do it again. I will figure this out and keep moving forward.

The point is that hand holding and letting people get away with breaking the rules only leads to the editors having more work in fixing things around here. They don't get paid and do this for free, and my inability to pay attention only frustrates them as it would me if I was an editor.

First read the editorial policy and try to understand it the best you can. I'm not perfect and don't catch things until I screw up 3 or 4 times (But I'm not going to beat myself up over it or be afraid of moderation either). So face the fear of making mistakes here and the possibility of being placed in moderation, and you will learn and only be stronger for it later.

This is how I perceive things to be here, and I hope it helped clarify some issues for new members.

Tammy

[Cecilia]

But you know, I have this huge fear of telling my story to friends and family because I don't want to get "the look". I can't stand that "oh, poor-you look". If I could tell my story and know that everyone would act exactly like they do now and nothing would change; the fear of talking would be diminished.

That is why I am comfortable with spiritual advisors and therapists. They give me direction and not pity.

[sunnydaze]

Seeking Nirvana,
I thank you for the insite. You are an awesome writer. I truly do understand what is being said. To me some sympathy is good, too much is not good if you want to get well. I just don't want to be scared and not write. Helping on a positive note is what anyone of us should be more concerned on.
sunnydaze

[spiritofnow]

I think that it is important that people maintain this; to write from the heart. None of us are overall experts. However, what we are, are experts (learning to be), in our own experiences. We have gained valuable insight(s) and knowledge from our own traumas, and how those traumas have affected us. We can relate and empathise but importantly we can highlight how we have perhaps dealt with similar experiences.

When we are relating to threads and posts I believe that most of the time we write from a place of understanding and reflection. However, there are times when we do just sympathise with a persons' situation and that might be because we do not have a direct experience, or perhaps we have not fully comprehended what the experience meant for ourselves.

It's tough to come on here and open yourself up (akin to the operating table), and then know how to write in a constructive manner.

I say concentrate on getting your own truths out there! Concentrate on finding your own truths. I am sure over time as people begin to do this they will become much more constructive.

After all how can you construct something you have not figured out for yourself? You can't! So muddle your way through, read, read read until you comprehend the meaning for yourself......

Don't we need a little of everything in order to prize out the positive stuff - if we are all going at this hammer and tong then we will not find a place of meaning? The mix of everything and everyone is what makes this work. i.e. one person's perception may trigger an alternative response in another person. Our differences are what facilitate the true meaning behind all of our banter - to look beyond your own perceptions and challenge YOURSELF. Not necessarily challenge everyone else lead by example!

We should just write from the heart and everyone will feel what we have to say- and the rest will all fall into place.

Just my thoughts!

Spirit x

[spiritofnow]

I guess this is bothering me to some extent. I have read enough on here now to get how this works. I get it! I get it, that one guy runs the show! One guy decides the overall direction and intention of this place. One guy decides the overall principle to how he believes this forum should be used to facilitate healing.

Okay so I get that! And I am definitely not here to fight against that perception - it is what it is and I get it! However, I am a fighter in life always have been and always will be - I challenge. Ain't nothing wrong with that - challenges should be met with grace and an open mind in order to determine what the actual outcome of that challenge could be? A challenge should be a learned experience. Much like this post has been for me - the very premise of it challenged me and I decided to take that on. I was honest about where I was coming from and then I could see how I could grow from that if at all?

I guess I am just concerned that people will be concerned about posting their thoughts and ideas in case they are not constructive. Not everyone can write in that way - so are they dismissed? And if they are will this place not just end up with clones of one person? Don't we need the mix of different styles to find our own way? Don't they say that spice is the variety of life? Don't we need a little of that; people who push and challenge in order to promote more growth - can't we hold a hand if someone really needs it and then advise them later on when they are ready?

I want to hold peoples hands - I want to offer what little comfort I can. I want to offer more than just tough love and I want to do it on here!

Spirit x

[spiritofnow]

'Sorry, it is 'variety is the spice of life'.

Spirit x

[anthony]

As Tammy stated, you get the idea as you read more here. People are taking this thread off in directions that have already been laid out in this very thread. Key points....

Sympathy has a time and place, in limited use.
Not every post or majority of posts a user makes should give or warrant sympathy.... clearly outline your intent as emotion is not passed in text unless you write it into the text.
Your diary as outlined is the place for you to write what is in your head, NOT for you to put diary entries into thread in general or PTSD chat topics. Chats are for sharing your experience in a topic, not laying down a bleeding heart story that INTENTIONALLY asks for sympathy.
If you post majority of posts in a "poor me" attitude, method, determination, you are INTENTIONALLY posting to suck sympathy from others....
You are writing text.... very different from face to face talking. You must be very clear when you write, you must express emotion, you must express venting, you must express that whilst something may sound like sympathy, that that is not what you feel or warrant if the case.
You must take into account that sympathy can be easily viewed when reading text.... you must think about that when you write on ANY forum or www community / social groups.I take onboard the points about people being allowed to challenge certain things, however; that has a limited scope. For example, if you think you come here and challenge something you disagree with and are the first person, your highly likely incorrect.

Forum policy and rules have already been challenged to death, already had enough users input into them. Editorial policy and editorial decision IS NOT PERSONAL, it is about enforcing a sense of balance and guidelines into a community of various cultural and country differences. Any person who runs or moderates a popular forum with hundreds plus active users, you will know exactly what problems come with it.

You can message me and challenge something, I listen. Again, likely you are not the first to challenge it and you won't be the last, however; if rejected before it will be rejected over and over for reasons that have already been publicly disclosed and are searchable.

Where I will step in and close a person down, moderate or ban, is when they take that challenge across the forum and cause disruption to the forum overall. Keep a topic, challenge in one thread, ONCE ONLY, or via private means. You DO NOT take a private chat public because you do not agree with a decision.

People need to differentiate between what is acceptable as a challenge procedure vs. just not stopping or accepting a decision in the belief something is to be their way or they leave type scenario. Honestly, I have not heard a new challenge here in a long time... that hasn't already been challenged, reviewed and either implemented or rejected.

If the policies of this forum didn't exist, the forum would be an absolute shit fight of all different cultures and countries trying to dominate, and trust me from over a decade of online community experience, IT DOESN'T WORK.

Running a specific topic forum is very different to running a site like myspace, where you don't care what people do within the bounds of the law. Specific topics are very different and must be kept within a set of boundaries in order to function correctly. Just look at other forums who try and fail.... there are thousands that fail every week around the world because they think they can do it without many rules, or the adminstrators listen to too many members and constantly change in order for popularity, instead of making decisions based on overall community integrity.

If you think its easy, again, I highly encourage people to start their own forum and find out for themselves.... you might just get a horrible shock when members begin challenging the same thing over and over.... it is repetitive for administrators, yet each member often thinks they are the first to raise or challenge a point.

Sympathy is an aspect that DOES NOT help PTSD, it only helps promote a depressive state which is non-beneficial for the healing of PTSD. When you have healed PTSD, go for it.... be sympathetic all you want, but even then you will find that it doesn't help.

Again, all you have to do is post naturally.... but you must be cognisant that your words must engage emotion, because if you don't write specifically online then you leave interpretation for the reader which can go one of many ways.

[sunnydaze]

Anthony,
I do understand what you are saying. I do not write clearly as many who have a college education or just have the knack of writing in this forum. I admire how great you give conselling and how wonderful you write. I feel that some of my writings may be interpeted as sympathy but aren't. I want to be helpful to myself and others and hope this is a learning experience and at least make me aware of what I am saying before I send a post.
it is not easy as you stated in running a forum. I would not want the job. One has to set ground rules as you stated or things can get out of hand. I have checked other forums out and they allow alot of swearing which turns me off.
I just get overly concerned on my off days of hoping that I don't cross the line and at the time are unaware of it. You are doing a wonderful job but at times it gets intimadating. I will try my best to respect the rules.
sunnydaze

[anthony]

You don't need to be concerned about being put in moderation for doing something wrong, because it doesn't happen that way. You will get warnings, plural, as do the majority. The only people who don't get a warning a straight out spammers, who are just banned and never seen by other members.

You have to go on a rampage across the forum before I will typically jump in and stop it. If you keep your topic in one thread, you will typically never have an issue with me surrounding rules, policies and editorial policy. If you go on a rampage as was clearly demonstrated from Grace and Herc, you will find yourself in moderation because they don't keep their opinions in one place, they spread the one issue across as many threads as possible in an attempt to garnish support, sympathy, what ever the case is, that is just all bad in my book and warrants moderation to keep a member posting correctly and not disrupting all other members.

Members choose which threads they read, but no member wants to be faced with the same issue in every thread they read, otherwise people just stop reading.... and that is when you will cross the editorial mark with me personally.

You do not have to worry about challenging me or the like, or posting.... if you do wrong individually you will know it privately through PM, as I will send a PM a members way outlining any issue. A member will know if they are coming around to being moderated or banned, just like herc posted across many threads, because she knew she was stepping over the marks of respectful posting as a member, even respectful challenging of myself. There are ways to do things, ways not to do things.... most people have enough commonsense of right vs. wrong, even with PTSD.

There is a lot of space given to every member because off having PTSD, and all you have to understand and accept is that I know all of this because I have been at the worst PTSD has to offer myself, so I know what boundaries to allow and what not to allow. A member who tries to milk it with me, they often find themselves shutdown very quickly because you are talking to someone who has PTSD, thus I have quite a detailed understanding and experience myself.... basically, you can't bullshit someone who understands the bullshit to begin with.

I hope that answers some of the doubts.... just post as normal and don't attempt to garnish sympathy by going on any forum rampages or the like, anything of extremes constantly, and you will be fine. Just read what is on this forum.... you will find the limits are pretty far and 99% of members will never reach those limits.... ever. Some just become a little too complacent I guess you could say, and think they could influence me over such forum standard procedures.... and they lose every single time.

You just have to read posts to understand me..... I have PTSD, I have healed and learnt, that doesn't mean I have no tolerance for everyone else to get through what I I have been through myself... not so. I do not go on forum rampages myself, I conform to the exact same policies and rules that members constructed long ago....

You have a very long rope here..... I would only say not to use it if you can, but just know you have a lot when you need it most....

[grace5555]

Just to clarify a couple of points...I only posted in the 2 threads dedicated to this matter. That does not seem to be a "rampage across the boards". Nor did I ever see any PM's of warnings, etc. Not that it matters at this point and I doubt this will be posted anyways but I would prefer the truth of the matter be stated.

[anthony]

Grace, yours was more the sympathetic aspect, but the majority was your want to challenge and conflict across many threads, which comes close to what is called a "troll" upon the Internet... a person who goes onto communities to cause trouble, to debate everything whether agreed or not, to just be disruptive. I had enough of it.... plain and simple.

[sunnydaze]

Anthony
Thanks so much.
It's just what I said in post #42 that you backed me up. I am truly grateful for all your hard work in keeping this forum from going out of control. You are a real blessing to society for wanting to help others in getting rid of the pain from our past.
sunnydaze

[Grama-Herc]

Anthony

With all due respect, I think that Grace got caught up in my little mini breakdown. I was the one who was causing the most trouble.

While she did express her share of questionable comments, she really did not participate that much in my mini fit.

I would like to see her given her access back. She has helped others here and her absence here will be felt.

I know the rules regarding the request to be taken out of moderation, however, I am not asking for myself. I am asking for some one who I unfortunately drug along with me during my mini breakdown.

[anthony]

Hi Herc.... Whilst you are trying to defend another here which may be admirable on its merits, the facts are that each person here makes their own decisions. Grace made hers, regardless what you say here, Grace made her decision to endorse and create her own rant. Not good enough.

[Nicolette]

I can vouch for what Anthony is saying as Grace and I had words and it had nothing to do with you Herc. Most interaction I have had with Grace has been with her posting a conflicting or argumentative post to something I have written.

[Grama-Herc]

Anthony and Nicolette, you are right. There are underlying facts that I am apparently unaware of.

I do, however, appreciate you answers/replies Thanx

[Trent]

I tell you what, Monkey, you're right in citing the dictionary definitions. Those ppl here who "bragged" about being unsympathetic made me want to stay away. I ventured back today to see what was said, and it seems that most ppl really do not sympathize with others. And that is just wrong.

New ppl coming in here might be looking for pity, and if I stick around, maybe I'll run into them. On the other hand, every person coming in here either has a problem or they're looking to help others with their problems. Shouting out that there is no sympathy is really counterproductive and scares us away.

Especially, if you don't know what the word means.

My first reaction was to just ditch the site. Now that I've taken another look, my reaction is to verbalize a string of abusive epithets and see if there is a way to block certain posts from appearing on my screen. And finally, my reaction is, "maybe I'm overreacting. It wouldn't be the first time. Relax and see what there is of value here."

*ERRRRRRR.... grinds teeth and thinks "will we ever get beyond our past?"

[Trent]

Ok ... what kind of crap is that... 10 minute limit on editing! For crying out loud, it took me 10 minutes to type the edit.

Here's what the edit would have said...something like it, since I now have to retype the whole thing.

I would have deleted the above post because it seems totally out of line with the climate of correctness for this forum. And everyone knows, I'm 100% politically correct.

One of the "symptoms" of ptsd seems to be a resistance to rules, so I'm glad to wind up here where the rules seem to involve my choice of words and whether I tell a story or relate a symptom or incident and someone might take it as looking for sympathy.

I apologize if I seem to be looking for sympathy (none sought, none offered, just like kindness in combat). But would it be wrong to tell a newbie that "I'm sorry you're going thru such a tough time." Would it be wrong to tell someone you're holding their hand or walking with them on this difficult journey?

I'm not posting this more than one time in multiple threads, worrying that someone might happen on it again. I'm not challenging anyone. I do not hope to gather support from anyone. I'm sorry if anything I say offends anyone in the whole world. I'm sorry if the past controls the present. Oh, and I wouldn't want anyone to think my remarks are sarcastic or given with double meaning. I sympathize with the ppl running the forum for such a hard job it is. Basically, I'm sorry for living.

Bang the gavel

[She Cat]

If you or anyone is looking for *PITY* the this isn't the place to get it. We understand, we empathies, we offer hope, we offer a shoulder, we try to offer solutions, but NO PITY here. You will get a kick in the ass if needed, set straight, maybe even told off, but you won't get pity. It serves NO point, it stops a person from healing, and it ends up hurting them in the end.

[anthony]

Hi Trent.... you have done nothing wrong, nor did I take your post as sympathetic... just your view. The forum has an editing limit due to experience of sufferers. You answered the question you asked really; in that you would have deleted what you said if allowed to edit your own posts. People would chop and change their content with their mood.... the forum information would be useless to anyone, and a waste of time to those who take the time to respond to those very posts in the first place. I am sure you would not want to respond to a post and have the person come along and just delete the original post of theirs to begin with... kind off makes your time a waste then.... ha?

[cec]

Anthony,

I have to thank you for this post for I am guilty of this. I understand that empathy acknowledges and validates experience; sympathy perpetuates it.

But, as a new member and new to a PTSD diagnosis, it takes time to understand what I"m experiencing. This understanding, in turn, will provide the basis I need to accurately reflect the experience of others. It is hard for new people to know how to interact. Sympathy, therefore, may be all us newbies are capable of.

Your post has certainly brought me into check and for this I'm grateful, but I'm glad I was shown patience.



Paul

[anthony]

Its a hard one for us all to come to terms with Paul... though one we must if we want to help ourselves. No other can help us, only we can help ourselves. This is why you have a great difference typically in therapy trends... some who get in and get the job done, then those who get in and go all round the hard stuff, never really into the core of the problem. This type of thing invokes a sympathetic mood when approaching therapy vs. someone who just lets go and tells the therapist every little truth to be told, holding nothing back, no secrets.... that can be empathised with IMO.

[Trent]

No sympathy wanted. No empathy wanted. I don't even want to tell you my story. I'm not sure why I even checked back here. I'd be afraid to post any "secrets" anyway. It's one thing to have them out there with ppl who care and another to post them where someone is going to check the sympathy-meter to see what is "intended."

For all I know what Anthony is saying cud be hundred percent correct, but it seems like an odd way to greet newbies ...

Come on in, Whack!
Watch what you're saying, Whack!
We care what happens to you, Whack!
Tell your story (but be sure all possible interpretations are included because someone else can't see your eye movement and hand gestures), Whack!
Put your story in a diary (where it will be kept a secret, or maybe you'd like to just type it in Word and file it in the back of ur PC -- Is that the same as telling someone?) - Whack!

It's a good thing all of you are patient ... maybe some of it will rub off on me. Logic says that no one would go to the trouble of maintaining such a site if they didn't care about ppl like me. Logic says that no one would post replies if they really didn't care. And then there is that part of my brain, or memory, or body or whatever that says "don't trust anyone."

I swear, everything I think or say seems like it's too sarcastic, too cynical, or too antagonistic to post here. I guess I could just open the way for my fingers to key in the thoughts that pass through my body and see what happens.

Or, maybe I'd just better crawl away into another dark place and keep the lid on my secrets. (or does that sound like looking for sympathy) ...

[Marlene]

Trent,

I've been on this forum for going on two years now. I guess that makes me an old-bie.

Wanting to keep your secrets to yourself, not trusting people, etc. are part and parcel or PTSD. I'm still oh so careful about who I talk to and who gets to know my story. Mainly because it's no one's business but mine.

This forum isn't about whacking new people into shape. This forum is set up and fuctions as a community where people who have PTSD and the folks that love them come to learn how to live with disorder. People who are further along in recovery share what they've learned with others here. And you're right, the person who started this forum and who maintains it does it because he does care about people like us. And the fact that Anthony does have PTSD as well give him an insight that others wouldn't have.

All that said, there has been some really goofy, silly and occasionally nasty shit that has been said and done on this site. The reason for so many rules is because it's been learned through experience that when you put a such diverse group of people together that without rules there's absolute pandemonium. If it weren't for things being kept safe and sane, a lot of us wouldn't be here. Myself included.

I'm with you that I don't wany sympathy. What I was looking for and found here was a place where I wasn't alone. With my PTSD I felt like the only freak in the side show. Here I don't feel like that. It's a place I can be myself without watching everything I say in case I let something out of the bag. If you don't want to write your story, that's fine. It's everyone's choice what they share or don't share here. If you just want to read and learn, that's cool, too. There is no expectation other than respecting others.

Hope this helps.

Lisa

[FightingLily]

Wow. Why is anyone taking Anthony's post personal? I agree. This is a support site, not a sympathy site, and if it were, I would not be a member....There is a huge difference between seeking support and seeking sympathy.

For example: a person writes a post about ongoing issues with a sufferer that is causing their relationship to fail, other members comment the post with validation (ie been there- hang in there) or will provide info or insight. This is seeking support.

But then if the same person repeatedly posts essentially the same sob story, all with different titles, this is a very annoying attempt at seeking sympathy and attention. Yes, we have one here. And I must say, I have to refrain from reading the garbage because it really pisses me off and IMHO, is counterproductive to what this community is suppose to be about.

[anthony]

People take it personal because PTSD oftens fills them with the only shown emotional response.... anger, hatred, attack, defend. Not emotions, but emotional responses. People often think this site is about telling their story... when that is just not even close. Telling your story is part of the process of asking for help... nothing more, nothing less. As stated here already, this place is about getting help, not having a chit chat fun time doing nothing for yourself. Yes, fun can be had.... but if your not here seeking help, seeking knowledge, seeking how to better yourself because what you're doing just isn't working.... then you're in the wrong place.

People take a negative and express their immediate thought, because their brain is only capable of finding the negatives... social aspects have an impact on this, just look at the news. People only want bad news, they want the worst of it all.... not what this forum is about. Get the worst out and start opening one's eyes to the reality of life, the reality of how to live a better life with PTSD. This is why people take things personal.... they cannot see past themselves, they cannot accept it is them that is broken. They would rather find a statement and attack, because that gives them a sense off accomplishment.

For those who have been here years, you would know all this. Point: New members need to do more reading of existing threads, sifting through the real content already contained here.... less arguing and venting of their own insecurities and anger. Learn from here how to change your life, not keep repeating the same cycle your already stuck within.

Honestly.... I love reading those members who come here and introduce themselves.... "I have been reading here for months, a year even" has been said. Those people often post in a very different manner right from start. They have already been learning from all the experience and knowledge here... taking what works for them from others sharing and trying to find the best methods for themselves... throwing the rest away. Those members are not here to argue or cause conflict, they have already begun bettering themselves and now just need to fill in some blanks. Congrats to all those who fit that criteria as a new member....

Trent: You started to make an admission:
I swear, everything I think or say seems like it's too sarcastic, too cynical, or too antagonistic to post here.
Things your saying here fit this criteria that you think you're doing. Why? Because that is how your trying to fit yourself in here. PTSD consumes us with anger, which is an emotional response, not an emotion. Males are the worst at emotions.... I know, being male and ex-military of all things.... emotions are just not what we instilled within. Took a lot to change myself after realising it was me that was broken, not the rest of the world.

[pandora]

Trent when i started at this forum over a year ago....I was having a huge pity party for myself too. I read and read and have learned and continue therapy.....I have learned more about myself, shared more about myself, learned how to change and improve the negative aspects of PTSD that I was unable to do on my own and at that time with a very highlt trained professional. She commente4d once that I have done more work and healing here in that year than I have with her over a number of years. This illness takes time, understanding, patience and above all a willingness to learn all that you can about yourself and others...in return you may help people along the way. There is a lot of positive people and the information that can be learned here is invaluable..IMO. You are the only one that can change the situation and you have to be the one to WANT to do that. I am living proof as are many others that this is a wonderful place to come when we need support.......I hope you try to give it a chance it will only help you and in the long run you will be the one to benefit as well as the people in your life, interpersonal relationships etc. Take care.

[Trent]

Knee bent, head down, apologies to all who take offense to my remarks.


I’m really having a hard time getting my brain around all of this. Some of the comments make sense and others make the writers sound arrogant. Some of the remarks are just confusing to me.

Let me give you some examples of what concerns me … and this is just an indication, not all of them, and not picking on specific people, just the type remarks that get under my skin. (From the replies, I take it that no one will be offended, but on the other hand, the word choice and phrasing make me think that some people are already offended).

Here are some things.

“You started to make an admission:” -- (What does this mean, started to make an admission that what I was saying seemed cynical, sarcastic, antagonistic … I’m telling you that it DOES seem that way – so why would I want to continue to load up the forum with this stuff that no one wants to hear and only causes trouble. I’ve caused enough trouble small globe.)

“I was having a huge pity party for myself too.” (Hmmmm… so now I’m having a pity party – think about how what you said sounds to me).

“You have to be the one to WANT to do that” (Can someone tell me what I’m saying that reads like I’m looking for someone else to make these change?)

“This is why people take things personal (ly).... they cannot see past themselves, they cannot accept it is them that is broken. They would rather find a statement and attack, because that gives them a sense off accomplishment.” (Does this mean that my taking exception to the “sympathy remarks” indicates that I can only see my own problem, that I’m “attacking” because it gives me a “sense of accomplishment? – Some accomplishment - "attacking" some anonymous person who is trying to help me. Are you sure your word choice is correct here? Is this really what you believe about me?


I have to say that you experts are either entirely misreading my comments or I’m totally miscommunicating them. And, if this is an indication of how the remarks of new people are perceived, it will be a long road for me to find acceptance.


That phrase about being unable to accept that it is me that is broken… whew, you are way off base with that thinking. Of course it’s me who is broken. Broken way back there when the bullets were flying and people were dying. Broken on the inside and broken on the outside. Patched up. Stood up. Saluted. Moved on….and now earning another Whack as I’m perceived to be blaming someone else. *shakes his head and says, “I really don’t get it.”

I don’t really expect anyone to answer these questions. I just needed to ask them.

I’ll come back and read these replies a forth time and see if the meaning is any clearer.


Now, I’ll back out of the room and close the door quietly, saying mia culpa, mia culpa.

[Auburngirl]

Trent, I can understand why this is hard. PTSD is hard and feeling like you are being judged makes it harder. But people on this forum don't know you and are basing their responses on what you write, no one knows you or your context, or your intentions or facial expressions when you were writing. It's hard not to take things personally, but maybe more useful to see comments here as responses to your posts, rather than to you.

Also, use the forum if and in ways that works for you. It is your choice about how much you say and don't say. It can be a good place to get information, because people are going through similar things. This doesn't have to be your life line. Different things work for different people and there are different paths to recovery. I find it's good to have support in a few different places, that way no one gets too worn out and you get different perspectives.

Just as you are responding to posts in a certain way, viewed from a certain place, others are responding to you. It's not a perfect mirror. Take a step back, remember that many people also welcomed you and seek out what will help you.

Best of luck.

[pandora]

Trent...I didn't mean to offend you. Sorry that i did.

[Trent]

I thought I'd take a break from the forum, but in essence, I probably won't be back.

This obsession that some of us are looking for sympathy has really taken the wind out of my sails. I'm not back at square one. I'm way back beyond that and furious about this accusation --- and digging in my heels the way us ptsd ppl do, over reacting, taking the "I'll show you I can do it" route, pretty much deciding that I'd really rather go it alone.

Thank you to everyone here who cares, but this remark of Anthony's just puts me back in my corner.

I'm putting all the secrets back in the box and locking the lid. It was a mistake to think I could bring them to light, that things would be better if someone else knew the stories.

I told a number of stories that affect me on another forum. At first it felt very positive, like I was making huge progress, but now I can clearly see that I have only been rubbing old wounds and making them raw. I must have been looking for pity, for sympathy.

I tried the business of acting happy, trying to laugh again, trying to actually fit the "stage face" that I've worn for so long. Seems like I should just go back to acting and leave the real me out of it. Just today, I thought I was acting happy-go-lucky, and someone close to me asked if I was ok. ... that I was acting as though I was very mad about something. Shows how good an actor I am.

The anger is under the skin. People seldom see it. No one knows that the rage simmers there. I don't think I really need those "would be" friends, and the damage will just be greater when they depart as I know they will anyway, especially if they find out the real me.

People really don't give a s* about the warriors anyway. Even when they ask, I can see the glaze come over their eyes as they start to get the answer -- and those are the mild answers, not the hard core stuff.

There are way too many "I's" in this writing, but they seem to be necessary to describe what's going on.

I was one of America's toughest soldiers, one of the toughest in the world. Trained to survive and thrive in the worst conditions, to reach the objective, succeed in the mission, and live to tell about it. This sojurn into the survivor/ptsd arena was maybe a distraction. I can do this on my own.

I'll just pack these thoughts back into the box and resume the position I was in when I arrived here. It seems that I have escaped the desperate things I was doing when I arrived on the scene with survivor sites. The thought crosses my mind sometimes, but I don't feel that strong attraction that I did earlier. For this I thank everyone.

As I type this, I'm having a serious deja vous and feeling like I've typed it before. The stories about my deja vous experiences and clairvoyancy haven't been told here (or elsewhere), but the upshot is that such a strong deja vous means that I must be very cautious; something bad is imminent. It can be avoided if I'm vigilant. The deja vous is a warning to change direction. This confirms my thoughts about jumping out of the forum.

I don't know what's on the other side, but it seems that following this path of telling the stories and being accused of self pity just isn't the route I want to take. My fingers were getting pretty good at revealing stories I'd forgotten, but even a wounded psyche isn't going to put up with a whack over the head.

Regretfully, leaving here means losing contact with some cyber friends. I don't know how this is going to impact me. I haven't had a friend for decades IRL. Your support is very much appreciated. These simple words don't seem enough to tell you how much your support has meant to me.

I don't have the nerve to PM a farewell to individuals. Perhaps some of them will visit this post and see what has happened.

If we were actually together, I'd hug you good bye, have very brief eye contact as the tears started to surface, and turn away for a long walk to the nearby airplane. The sun is setting behind the airplane and shines on your face as you look toward me.

Just before stepping into the aircraft at the top of the stairs, I'd turn, almost look at you, and raise a hand, almost like a wave, before stumbling over the threshold because of the tears flooding my eyes as I go through the door.

From the window, I'll watch you shrink into history as the plane picks up speed and takes off.

That's how I'd say good bye IRL. I don't know how to say good bye here. I am sorry. *tears ... and later, much later, after I calm down, I'd write a letter to Anthony and thank him for freeing me from any desire to give attention to the ptsd.

[linasmom]

Trent,

I feel that your entire post is a big bag of B.S. Sorry. It is riddled with stark sarcasm. Not sure what your point is in posting this "poetic manifesto" other than to garner attention. If I've misinterpreted your intention, then I apologize. But, from what I can see - it seems that you are at the same time thankful for certain revelations while scorning the forum for doing so.

Best,
Rachel

[goingonhope]

Hello Trent, I wish I could be of some help to you, but I can't. I don't even know what country or state you from, (lol) but the state of mind does ring familiar to me from previous yrs.

Your most recent post though difficult for me to follow intellectually, makes sense to me emotionally. I hear enormous amounts of fear. Throughout my whole life, I too have had enormous amounts of debilitating fears; I do still have many existing, but with me remaining unwilling to quit on reclaiming self, and improving my life, I've challenged myself now for years and thus traveled some hell'a'va f'n wonderful distance; Life can be good again.

Really, try to cut yourself some slack and not be too hard on yourself; I know it may feel next to impossible especially if you're obsessive surrounding your fears, but even then from my experience, exhaustion and self-defeat take hold and obsessions soon dry up and next to evaporates.

IMHO, I also hear that you are feeling very isolated. Too much isolation worsens everything; Really, it makes one really ill,..........sucks spirit and life right out of us; Launches us into our brain'housing and attempts to trap us, keeping us f'n stuck and thinking in circles.

isolation = inertia

Trent, please don't do what I've done; I've thought so little of myself before, that I've sabotaged my direction on behalf of 'great & valid reasoning and justifications'. We as people are right and wrong, every f'n day of our lives. Who gives a crap, whose right and whose wrong, just be as honest as You can each new day about you and your trauma, with whomever you can.

.....Learn, make new chooses, heal and grow from it all; From everything, ..... which includes, learning from any and every emotion, agony, success, failure, hardship, loss ......whatever, ...own these and surrender to win.

Surrender to win,... ...while replacing what doesn't work, for what works.

Give it to yourself, ...A Chance, that your thinking can once again work for you, and not against you. And, if you do so decide to be honest with your trauma, where ever and with whomever, just know that the saying, "It gets worse before it gets better." Is no bullsh't.........Honesty with trauma, its impact and its nature, can and does make one very ill and feel raw, before producing some mighty acceptable results.

Take care, Trent.

Hope

[She Cat]

Trent,

IMHO......You don't want anything other than sympathy. You don't want to work on your trauma, you want sympathy. You want people to feel sorry for you and say, " Oh poor Trent, what a shitty life he has."

Well I have had a shitty life too, the same as everyone else here, and we don't ask for sympathy. If we get offended because someone says something that we don't like, usually we step back, think about it and DEAL with it in a healthy way.

No one is begging you to stay, so I guess that's pretty much it......

[anthony]

Hi Trent,

Don't try and shift your actions upon me though please... you own your decisions, not me, not another. This is exactly part and parcel of the issues with PTSD.... we make decisions and blame another for our own decisions. Not a positive act. You have applied a general discussion upon yourself, towards yourself... what does that say? Does that mean it hits home more to you? Denial is an essence of PTSD.

[Trent]

:) ... so what are you trying to say, Tony ... that you're observing ptsd at work ... check the name of the forum ... it's ptsd 100%...same w me, full ptsd.

And whatever the cause of my acting, reacting, deactivating ... I do thank you and some of the other experts here for showing me the truth so soon. Many thanks to you as I put things back together in survival mode and get away from all of this sympathy seeking that I've been doing. No more denial here, no more bringing up the stories, no more bothering anyone else. Alone wasn't great, but it beats getting whacked. Adios amigo.

[cactus_jack]

While I agree with you Anthony, at the same time I disagree. Sometimes I do not look for pity or sympathy, as much as I wish I had someone to give me a hug. Emotional support is one thing, pity and sympathy are totally separate.

[Nicolette]

I wonder if Anthony's military training is reflected in his views???....he can be very direct and blunt....not as tactful as one would like at times :rolleyes:.....

You know, I think our views change as our life experiences do....sometimes we can agree to disagree and sometimes there are differing shades of grey....not everything is black and white.

If it was me being told I was sympathy seeking, I would take on board what I believed to be true or perhaps only bite sized pieces and have a look at what was being said compared to how I was acting. Self analysis is good. If someone says they perceive you to be seeking sympathy I guess it is worth exploring if you want to grow.... it does not mean they are always correct but it does provide you with a platform for self evaluation. No-one is asking you to change who you are....only you can change the way you act if you want to.

[Nicolette]

I wish I had someone to give me a hug.

Cyber :Hug_emoticon: .......

[cactus_jack]

Thanks Nicolette!

[anthony]

Emotional support is one thing, pity and sympathy are totally separate.
Absolutely agree with you on that CJ. Emotional support is though a form of empathy, which is quite sustainable, natural, desirable even. We all need emotional support.

[No-Twitch-Tabitha]

Yes...pity and sympathy actually are insulting to the person in pain. It's patronizing and rather fake. Being sympathetic doesn't really require any action in actually helping comfort the person, and the way most people sympathize with someone is to pretend to agree with him which only serves to reinforce the pain instead of to help heal it.

Empathy and emotional support require hard work that most people just don't want to do either because they don't think they can or they simply don't care.

[Seychelle]

Empathy and emotional support require hard work that most people just don't want to do either because they don't think they can or they simply don't care.

I was wondering if it's possible for someone to describe a few examples of healthy empathy and emotional support? It's a difficult concept for me (in that receiving emotional support can be a bad trigger for me at times and I don't really know the difference between sympathy and healthy emotional support - I run away from all of it a lot of the time).

[Arcticboy1970]

The best analogy that I have heard for the difference between empathy and sympathy is as follows;

You are walking along one day and find a guy down in a big muddy ditch.
sympathy is getting there with him, empathy is saying dude I've been there.

sympathy is feelnig the same thing as someone

empathy is understanding the feeling, having experienced it

It is often hard for us, myself included, to tell someone that I think I understand what you are feelnig without it sounding like I'm crawling down in the ditch.

I can see there is soem wisdom in the policies here. Anthony and others have put alot of thoguht into them over the years. I used to be part of a supprot group that was in person in an office on a Cdn Military base. There were a lot of rules there too, again some wisdom was in them. Anyone ever been to AA, lots of rules there too. Again wisdom.

I recall a guy saying to me years ago that no one can MAKE me feel anything, that anything I feel comes from inside. I still haven't mastered it but I am much better now with looking at things around me and identiying what feelings things are elliciting in me and then trying to connect that with what is underlying.

That being said, a person needs to figure out what they feel before they can show empathy.

[anthony]

I recall a guy saying to me years ago that no one can MAKE me feel anything, that anything I feel comes from inside. I still haven't mastered it but I am much better now with looking at things around me and identiying what feelings things are elliciting in me and then trying to connect that with what is underlying.
Well said... and smart person to give you that advice. Well done on your own experiences by learning.

Sympathy has its places... sympathy works in some situations... hell, its warranted in some instances, however; when you have PTSD it is no longer warranted. Sympathy has a place upon immediate death of a loved one. If a person however lost a loved one and was still seeking that same sympathy a month on whilst drowning their sorrows still.... that is not sympathy that should be given, instead the person should now provide empathy that yes, they have lost a loved one, though life must also go on. They must take charge of themselves... this is the time sympathy would only continue enabling them, empathy would give them more a swift kick in the arse to continue grieving, though also take charge of their life.

Sympathy can continue in the death of a loved one in some aspects even, ie. the none willingness to begin dating. If they still love someone that died... who should really tell them to begin dating again when they love another so much they simply cannot bring themselves to it? Sympathy would still be warranted in such an occasion of an event, but not the event itself when the ongoing behaviour is destructive in nature to themselves and anyone else around them.

Sympathy truly does have a time and place.... but when PTSD has developed, guess what? You are now talking about past traumatic events, not current, not now... past events that a person is still wanting pity for. That is where sympathy no longer has a place and any person giving it at such a delayed time is only enabling the person to continue pitying themselves over what happened.

I hope one can see even further into why and where things have there place, though more why sympathy is often just not warranted here with past trauma. When someone has lost a loved one in the present and posted it here... that is sympathy and it is warranted at that time. If people continued to provide sympathy though as time went on vs. empathy, then they would only enable the person to be destructive. Again, that doesn't mean grieving must cease... just how it is done.