When Does It Become *more* Than A Shut-out? [Archive]

sisu

03-04-2008, 11:31 AM

Nicolette~
You are very right about the bad behavior. PTSD is NOT an excuse.

The reason I asked the question is that there is a thread about shut outs and lots of other threads mention shut outs...and I guess I wasn't totally clear what a shut out was.

Because in the beginning of my ex's ptsd spiral downward, he just suddenly shut down and shut me and everyone else out. Now that is has been 9 weeks I have told him that I can no longer even be his friend because of his lack of respect for my feelings.

In the beginning I would call it a shut-out. But after a while I had to quit making excuses and call it *over*! As a person on the carer side....how much slack should be given to a person with ptsd. I mean, if someone had the flu or another illness I would also give them a period of time to be sick and get over the illness. What about the ptsd crisis....with respect to the sufferer and the carer....how should one proceed? Tough love with no excuses for poor behavior? Or give them slack during a crisis?

Sisu

She Cat

03-04-2008, 11:37 AM

Nicolette,

While I do agree with you 100%. PTSD is not an excuse to treat others badly. Being a person with PTSD I can tell you this.

There were times in my recovery that answering the phone wasn't an option, I was struggling to hold onto my life. Reaching out, wasn't one of them either. Hiding, being afraid, fearful, paranoid, depressed, scared, drunk, high on drugs, and coping anyway that I could was about all I could handle.

That said.............It didn't occur to me UNTIL I was in therapy, and recovering that my behavior might have been bad. It just was, I didn't care, I didn't know any different. I still struggle with forgiving myself for my behavior years prior to therapy. I coped as well as I could at the time.

PTSD is NEVER an excuse and should NEVER be used as one. But I want to say this too. If I offend anyone I am sorry.

Don't sit there and tell me that PTSD isn't an excuse for my behavior. Don't try and tell me how I should respond to anyone or thing. Don't try and tell me how I should do this or that. Until you have walked in my shoes.....

When you have gone through what we do on a daily basis then...Maybe.

When you have seen what we have seen...Maybe.

When you have faced death and chosen to die.....Maybe.

When the bottom of the pit looks like a better alternative....Maybe.

When you are so afraid that you fear virtually everything and everyone....Maybe.

When food become the enemy or your best friend....Maybe

When you pray to die every waking moment.....Maybe.....

When you can't feel safe even in your own home....Maybe.

I could go on and on, but I think that you get the idea.

PTSD isn't easy. PTSD isn't for sissy's. You have to be pretty ****ing strong in my book to deal with this shit everyday and still be alive the next morning.

No it isn't an excuse...It's a life sentence and I didn't do the ****ing crime to deserve the sentence either.

So walk in my shoes for a day, and then you can tell me whatever you like.

No I am not pissed, just venting and hoping (wishing)someone can understand how we actually feel.

Cindy

03-04-2008, 12:48 PM

9 weeks? I'm in my tenth year. I don't think you "get over" PTSD, it is not like a physical illness with an end. It is something you have to incorporate into your life and manage. BUT, learning to manage it and monitor it takes a while. Initially, when you first recognize the disorder you are out of control and spiralling down the drain. Sometimes losing people in our lives, unfortunately. The reason, I think, for losing people is because we can not communicate what is happening to us. How can you explain to someone what you don't understand yourself. Many of us have learned to become very self reliant because we never had support systems in our lives. To allow ourselves to rely on anyone is a HUGE risk.

Do we shut down, cut people out, become hermits? Absolutely! The many times in which I reflect on this process, the reason has been to regroup my own thoughts without interference of others. This is a very solitary fight of gripping our own reality. Sometimes it is just too confusing or painful to keep explaining yourself and thoughts. From the other side, I can see where this process could hurt you and make you feel you are not trusted or worthy of the secrets you may percieve we are keeping. But, honestly, I have never done this with malice in my heart, just with the drive of self preservation.

Do not take a person's alone (processing) time as a reflection on your relationship because that is not normally the intent. Instead, try to develop signals or communication methods that will indicate to all - space and time are required to move foreward again.

As a person heals, their symptoms should space out in time. But there will always be a time when they will need their own quiet solitude to regroup.

Nicolette

03-04-2008, 01:13 PM

Don't sit there and tell me that PTSD isn't an excuse for my behavior. Don't try and tell me how I should respond to anyone or thing. Don't try and tell me how I should do this or that. Until you have walked in my shoes.....

No-one is saying PTSD isn't an excuse for your behaviour...I have seen a little of PTSD and accept the illness while I wouldn't wish it on anyone. What I didn't articulate very well Wendy is that I believe if a person has PTSD and enters a relationship they then have a responsibility to what they have committed to. As a normal healthy person I would not stand for a boyfriend "shutting me out" as that is usually a sign that he is not really interested. With PTSD, I would be a little more accommodating and tolerant but if it continued on an ongoing basis it would be a sign to me that it is over.

We are not discussing "bad behaviour" in context of the day to day life struggle that suffers must endure, we are discussing it in relation to being in a relationship and how you interact with your partner.

No it isn't an excuse...It's a life sentence and I didn't do the ****ing crime to deserve the sentence either.

So walk in my shoes for a day, and then you can tell me whatever you like.

Wendy, I would not for one minute want to walk in your shoes but say this to you....life throws us things which we would not choose for ourselves. I have a permanent back injury (which was not my fault) and on days when I couldn't walk and 24 panadine forte in a matter of hours did not stop the pain I struggled with life. I did not however mistreat people. I may have been cranky, short tempered, snappy etc but I did not abuse anyone. Here in lies my point. If you have PTSD and you are having a dreadful time and tell your partner they then can try and appreciate your situation. If you just ignore them for weeks on end with no contact that is just plain rude.

2quilt

03-04-2008, 01:58 PM

My husband's first wife shut him out and he hung around for another 3+- years before leaving her. He loved her and was hoping against hope that she would get better. He almost had a nervous breakdown.

If I were in that situation, my tolerance would have ended a hell of alot sooner than three years off my lifetime. But we are different people, and I am thinking hypothetically because i never lived that situation. I also know what kinds of things she did to my husband to abuse him and I don't like her.

My question is, do you still love each other? For me, and me alone, that would be my deciding question. People do alot of things in the name of love. I would stay with this husband I have until the end of time no matter what happens. I love him like no other person on earth. But he does not abuse me in any way. If he did, my ass would be gone in a heartbeat because that means, to me, that he did not love me. Because of my PTSD and history, I have a low tolerance for abusive people.

Do you consider being shut out of his life as a form of abuse? Will he go to therapy? Does he think he needs professional help? These questions may help you make decisions.

Nicolette

03-04-2008, 07:06 PM

What about the ptsd crisis....with respect to the sufferer and the carer....how should one proceed? Tough love with no excuses for poor behavior? Or give them slack during a crisis?

Sisu, I think you need to decide whether there is a crisis and then what is it before you can even start to decide how much slack to give. 2quilt also raised some interesting and quite relevant questions which you could ask yourself also.

For me, if I knew what was going on and why the communication had ceased (whether it was truly PTSD issues or just a lack of interest) it would sway my decision. Then, I would do as 2quilt said, and assess the situation in relation to what mattered to me. While I believe in love, it can be somewhat one-sided in relationships where one person is more in love than the other...something else I would have to try to honestly ask myself.

2quilt mentioned her husband waiting for 3 years - there is no way I would do that. 9 weeks, well, unless there was a really good reason, I would tend to think the relationship had no potential and was over.

She Cat

03-04-2008, 08:10 PM

Nicolette,

IMHO.... If you couldn't wait 9 weeks.......Well I guess then you should move on. Your back pain, and our emotional pain that invades everyone of our senses, our lives, and our being...... is a no brainer. I would GLADLY give anything to have your back pain, and you can deal with PTSD.

This to me is a pointless discussion. IMO you may never understand what we as suffers go through. Patience is a much with people like us. If a person doesn't have any, then the relationship is doomed.

Ignoring people for weeks Nicolette?????? You think it's rude??? How about thinking that maybe it's called survival???? Maybe try thinking that the other person may actually be trying to protect you from themselves. Rage is a huge component of PTSD.

This is pointless. None of you can possibly understand.

Cowgirl

03-04-2008, 11:01 PM

This to me is a pointless discussion. IMO you may never understand what we as suffers go through. Patience is a much with people like us. If a person doesn't have any, then the relationship is doomed.

Ignoring people for weeks Nicolette?????? You think it's rude??? How about thinking that maybe it's called survival???? Maybe try thinking that the other person may actually be trying to protect you from themselves. Rage is a huge component of PTSD.

This is pointless. None of you can possibly understand.

Wow, you have some work to do, She Cat. You are wearing your pain like a badge of honor. In the grand sense of the term, NO ONE can truly understand where another is coming from. We each bring to relationships our own unique perspectives. Some people benefit from discussing these diverse perspectives in order to gain a broader perspective. Clearly, others do not. Those who don't need not read them.

I think if someone shuts out another for months at a time, it may well be that they don't want a relationship right now. I know that my DH went through a stage years ago where he retreated and drove everyone from his life. It took many, many months to re-emerge (over a year), and several more years before he sought out a relationship.

I was not a part of his life then. Had I been, he'd have pushed me far away too, I'm sure. Timing is everything in life. If someone retreats for many weeks, it may well be that they are into a stage of that sort. How long it will last is anyone's guess. It could end next week. It might end a few months from now. It might end in a year, or two.

I guess in a situation where one is completely shut out, one has to eventually let go. When is the big question, isn't it? If only we had crystal balls, to know how long it will be before a person is ready to be in a relationship, wouldn't it be lovely?

Cowgirl

2quilt

04-04-2008, 12:39 AM

Lucky Laser

04-04-2008, 12:47 AM

This is pointless. None of you can possibly understand.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one. :wink: Perhaps they won't understand what it feels like to have PTSD. But they can understand some very important and helpful things and coming here shows that they want to do just that. It seems that at first, people tend to think that one could use PTSD as an excuse but if they are patient and learn more about it they will realize that it is not. But it takes some time to learn this. I think that as sufferers who are making a real effort to get better, we also need to have patience in a relationship.

Maybe try thinking that the other person may actually be trying to protect you from themselves. Rage is a huge component of PTSD.

I hear you on that one... that is a big thing for me. When I start getting stressed, I start becoming afraid that I will rage. More than once I've told my husband that "I feel like running away right now, I don't want to hurt you!" I know what I am capable of... at the same time, from what I've read here and from what he says to me, its clear that some of those who care for us don't want us to hide! So I struggle not to.

On the flip side, I think that as a sufferer, I might never truly understand what its like to be the one living with me and trying to help me through something they have never experienced. But I know it isn't easy either and I want to have as much patience as I can for that person too.

unbroken

04-04-2008, 01:01 AM

When I met my girlfriend, I was unaware of her PTSD. We had a couple great dates and we fell in love. She hadn't dated in a long while because she was very picky, and she didn't want to be with someone who wasn't sincere about a relationship. Then she took a chance and she met me.

After a couple weeks she began to feel ill, tired and a little moody. Since I was unaware of her PTSD, or it's impact on either of us, I didn't know what to think. Then she had a break down and I didn't hear from her for two days and I thought to myself, "great...another woman who comes on strong and then changes her mind about me". It's happened all too often, and I was very hurt because I really felt like she was 'the one'.

I sent her a couple emails asking how she was, because email and phone were the only way to contact her and she wasn't returning my calls. Finally I sent one telling her that I worry about people I care about if they don't show up when they're supposed to or if they don't return my calls. I thought for sure that she didn't want to see me anymore, and my email wasn't mean or nasty, just telling her how she was making me feel. In her heart she wasn't ending it with me, so it hurt her to some extent. In my heart, which was breaking, I didn't know what I did to make her not return my calls or emails.

Finally we talked and she told me how she felt about my emails and told me that I had to believe in my heart that she had fallen for me, and that she was just going through a tough time. When we talked I learned a little more about her and she told me about her PTSD and some things she's gone through. Of course, I felt horrible, but also explained to her that when I get close to someone, like her, she is my family and that she needs to believe in her heart that I'm not going to leave her because of her bouts.

She promised to try not to shut me out ... and that was when I realized that what she was doing was called "shutting me out", and I understood it a little more. We've had a couple other issues come up, and we try to talk them out, but I've learned that sometimes if I just clam up instead of debating with her, she begins to realize that just maybe she was a little harsh with what she said or how she said it, and she apologizes to me the next time we talk. It's not that I want her to feel guilty, or that I want her to think she's wrong, but we both accept that she has these bouts and instead of perpetuating her frustrations I try to be understanding.

To me, and I don't speak from any sort of knowledge base or higher level of experience, if you're being shut out for weeks or months at a time then ther sufferer is clearly not ready for a relationship, and it's not fair to the carer to have to go for that long of a time without contact with someone they care deeply about. Hell, I couldn't handle two days, and I surely wouldn't be able to handle two weeks, let alone two months.

The difference with her and I is that we both want the whole white picket fence scenario, and most importantly, with each other. I am learning to hang up my fears of her leaving me at the drop of a hat, and she's learning to hang up her fears of me leaving her because she has PTSD and is working through it. I constantly remind her that I love her, and that I'm here for her no matter what.

She did send me an email once asking me if I'm ready for a relationship with her and all her "issues" (there are a couple others, but I don't want to elaborate). She told me that she would fully understand if I wasn't interested in pursuing the relationship, she said she would be upset, but would understand. When I told her that I was in love with her, and wanted to be with her, she thanked me.

It hasn't been perfect, and there are times when I wonder if I'm doing the right thing. It's all very new to me and I'm trying my hardest to understand, and it's all new to her to have a guy who isn't after one thing (even though she does accuse me of having a one track mind!)

I think we'll be okay, and she knows that I'll be here for her ... through thick and thin, good or bad. Like I said, it's been a struggle, but it's getting better as I learn more about how to handle it. Hopefully she will get better about it too as she learns more about me. I have my own problems, and she helps me with them...so it works for us both. She takes care of me too.

Lucky Laser

04-04-2008, 01:23 AM

Unbroken, your post almost made me cry because you are so sweet!

I am learning to hang up my fears of her leaving me at the drop of a hat, and she's learning to hang up her fears of me leaving her because she has PTSD and is working through it. I constantly remind her that I love her, and that I'm here for her no matter what.

My husband and I are learning these exact same things. There have been times that I have felt so toxic to my husband that I would be at my parents' house and not return his calls for nearly a day (which is a long time for us). But he keeps leaving me messages that he loves me and wants to talk to me. Now I know that he has been afraid of losing me when I do things like that but I think he is learning that I love him so much I could never imagine life without him. And I am learning that running away isn't going to protect him from me as much as it hurts him. Its just so hard when I get to feeling like that!

She told me that she would fully understand if I wasn't interested in pursuing the relationship, she said she would be upset, but would understand. When I told her that I was in love with her, and wanted to be with her, she thanked me.

Again, told my husband the same thing, and he chose to stay with me. It makes me so happy and hopeful to see that there are other couples who are working through this and making it work. :smile:

sisu

04-04-2008, 01:32 AM

Above all else, Sisu, I think that you are doing the right thing in your situation to ask the opinions of others to get a better idea what other folks would do in your shoes.

What I really enjoy about this forum is that everyone has an opinion, and it helps me to make decisions when I hear the views of others here. Many times in my life I can only see one way to solve a problem, and the people on this forum, and outside in real life, have opened up my mind to the various possibilities out there.

I totally agree with the post by 2quilt. It is nice to get a variety of opinions to this. Since I do not have ptsd and it is all new to me, I am just trying to soak up as much as I can. Learn, understand, empathize, etc. I will (hopefully) never know what it actually feels like to have ptsd. But with as much knowledge about it as I can get, I feel like I will be ready and strong if I am with the ex again or if I meet someone else in that situation.

Anyway, as you know I ended it with my boyfriend. I know he has lots of work to do on himself before he is ready for me. He knows that too and hopefully is working on himself. I did feel like if I didn't totally end things I was allowing my love to be a "safe landing" and he would never seek out the help he needs. Meds alone is not the answer. He was diagnosed 4 years ago and has not done much else besides meds. It is so hard to step back and watch someone you love struggle like that. But in the end, it is something that they have to face. I allowed the *shut out* for a long time (9 weeks).
At some point I have to repect myself and move forward in my own life.

We had 8 beautiful months.....the best I have ever had with a man. I love him dearly and always will. I feel like he is the missing piece to my puzzle...he is a part of me. But, now is not the time for us. Maybe someday.

Sisu

Cowgirl

04-04-2008, 02:07 AM

Anyway, as you know I ended it with my boyfriend. I know he has lots of work to do on himself before he is ready for me. He knows that too and hopefully is working on himself. I did feel like if I didn't totally end things I was allowing my love to be a "safe landing" and he would never seek out the help he needs. Meds alone is not the answer. He was diagnosed 4 years ago and has not done much else besides meds. It is so hard to step back and watch someone you love struggle like that. But in the end, it is something that they have to face. I allowed the *shut out* for a long time (9 weeks).
At some point I have to repect myself and move forward in my own life.

We had 8 beautiful months.....the best I have ever had with a man. I love him dearly and always will. I feel like he is the missing piece to my puzzle...he is a part of me. But, now is not the time for us. Maybe someday.

Sisu

I have wondered why doctors ever "treat" PTSD with only drugs. My DH had a very disastrous experience with such "treatment." I am sure the drugs must help some people, or why would doctors prescribe them so extensively? But it seems to me that drugs alone cannot solve the problem, only maybe make some of the worst symptoms more bearable. I fully understand DH's distrust of the medical establishment after his one go-round with it on treating this. Hopefully one day he'll get brave and seek some non-drug therapy. Well, he has begun to open to it, only I'm still not sure about it. *gulp*

I hope your ex-BF finds treatment that helps him also, whether in conjunction with the drug therapy or independent of it. It can be a long and winding road, seeking what we need in this life!

As to the future for you, Sisu, who knows what it will bring? You are growing and learning through this whole experience, and whatever the future may bring you, you will be wiser for having lived and learned from this experience. Your attitude looking forward is great, and you'll come out on the other side of this beautifully, no matter what the future holds.

:Hug_emoticon:

Cowgirl

Nicolette

04-04-2008, 05:14 AM

Rage is a huge component of PTSD.

This is pointless. None of you can possibly understand.

How can anyone ever understand if you don't tell us Wendy? I feel you are currently directing your rage at my posts even though they are not about you. I have never professed to understand PTSD but Sufferers can help Carers by trying to explain some things to help us understand.

Nicolette

04-04-2008, 05:25 AM

More than once I've told my husband that "I feel like running away right now, I don't want to hurt you!" I know what I am capable of... at the same time, from what I've read here and from what he says to me, its clear that some of those who care for us don't want us to hide! So I struggle not to.

My point all along has been if a Sufferer communicated what was going on then as a Carer you have a point of some understanding. Just disappearing and saying nothing for weeks on end is not that.

Nicolette

04-04-2008, 05:27 AM

At some point I have to respect myself and move forward in my own life.

We had 8 beautiful months.....the best I have ever had with a man. I love him dearly and always will. I feel like he is the missing piece to my puzzle...he is a part of me. But, now is not the time for us. Maybe someday.

Sisu I hope your boyfriend does do the work on himself that he needs and I wish you love again in your life :Hug_emoticon: Well done however for respecting your needs too.

She Cat

04-04-2008, 07:07 AM

Cowgirl,

If you think I have a ton of work to do.....You should have been around 20 yrs ago. You would have been scared shitless of me back then. I have come so far in my healing compared to what I was like. Don't ever doubt that.

I will state this again. None of you can ever possibly know how we feel and what we go through. So that point is pointless IMHO!!!!! Unless you have PTSD you couldn't possibly understand, or even come close to understanding.

I agree PTSD is NO EXCUSE for bad behavior. But it also depends on what behavior we are talking about. Pulling away, retreating, shutting down are survival modes for all involved. IMO!!!!

Screaming, calling names, not making compromises, throwing temper tantrums, ect are bad behavior and shouldn't be tolerated.

Time constraints on healing just is stupid as far as I am concerned. It's like telling someone with cancer that they only have 9 weeks to get better. Doesn't happen people. When stress hits, and we become overwhelmed with everything, getting dressed can be a major issue for us. Then try to have a relationship and participate...Not going to happen if the person can't deal.

This is difficult, and very frustrating for all of you carers. I understand, but you also can't and never will be able to understand what we go through.

I applaud all of you for trying, but you can never fully understand .....

sisu

04-04-2008, 07:26 AM

This is difficult, and very frustrating for all of you carers. I understand, but you also can't and never will be able to understand what we go through.

I applaud all of you for trying, but you can never fully understand .....

She Cat,
You are right ~ I will never fully understand ptsd (hopefully). But like many others on here, I am trying. I happen to love and care about someone who has ptsd.

He has never been mean, rude, violent, etc. to me ... EVER. He has, however retreated into his cave. He says he cannot handle any type of commitment right now because his job has become very stressful and he is having personal issues with one of his kids. When I have seem him, he is very loving and affectionate (and I am not even talking sex). This is my choice...I cannot handle the affection one minute and then the "dropped off of the face of the earth" the next.

I love this man more than I have ever loved anyone....my ex husband included. Unfortunately his ptsd has taken over right now. In the 4 years since being diagnosed, he has had only a couple of downward spirals. They don't usually last this long, but he has never had this much stress with kids and work before either.

I am just trying to see how others on here define *shut out*....

Sisu

Cowgirl

04-04-2008, 07:39 AM

Cowgirl,

If you think I have a ton of work to do.....You should have been around 20 yrs ago. You would have been scared shitless of me back then. I have come so far in my healing compared to what I was like. Don't ever doubt that.

I will state this again. None of you can ever possibly know how we feel and what we go through. So that point is pointless IMHO!!!!! Unless you have PTSD you couldn't possibly understand, or even come close to understanding.
.....

I am glad that you have come a long way. I'd not have been scared of you then, though. I've dealt with convicted murderers who threatened my life, so I'm a pretty tough cookie. Not much scares me shitless. I merely recognize a level of antagonism that you bring to your posts and responded to it, as you seem to excoriate our attempts to understand better.

I may never understand you, you are right. You may never understand me. You are not alone, not the only person who has ever experienced deep, soul searing pain, not the only one who has ever lived through hell on earth, I can guarantee you. As I stated before, NO ONE can truly understand anyone else. All one can do is use skills of empathy to attempt to walk a bit in the other's shoes. Anyone who has experienced pain can also use empathy to attempt to understand another person's pain. That helps to bring a level of understanding. Perhaps that is pointless to you, but you are free not to read such posts, also.

She Cat

04-04-2008, 07:51 AM

Cowgirl,

I respect your opinion. I will also not get into a pissing contest with you or anyone else on this forum. I choose to read, and respond to whatever I feel. End of story.

neverforget

04-04-2008, 08:07 AM

I've read this thread with interest and I have a question,cause I'm not sure.

When we had a discussion with my ex, he often seemed unable to answer my questions,and to express his feelings.
I felt like he didn't care, sometimes I wondered if he just understood what I was saying. Such a strange feeling!
In the end I thought there was no use in trying to communicate, cause I had this feeling I was talking to myself and I just pissed him out.

I didn't want to get angry, so I would just wait, and it would take him 2 days to react.
Then he would contact me with thoughts clear, express his opinion about the issue of the discussion and all the things he would say about it would make sense. But there was this delay, hard to understand.

Is it a shut out?

One day I sent him an e-mail (cause phone seemed to make him uncomfortable when it was a "serious" discussion) and expressed how I felt about something that happened and that I didn't understand.

It would take him two days to answer and tell me he was sorry he didn't answer earlier,that he knew it was not nice, and that I shouldn't be angry but he couldn't find a straight answer to my e-mail.

Globally, he seemed unable to tell me how he felt about a situation, and often unable to make a decision (which is logical if he didn't know how he felt about the situation). He seemed to suffer from it.
I thought when he said "I don't know" he wanted to avoid a conversation, and that made me angry, but maybe he really didn't know.

The last discussion we had was very emotional cause I explained him I thought breaking up was better for us, and he told me "I phone you tomorrow morning", "I'm going to spend the night thinking".
Like again he needed a delay to be able to react to what I said. I found it weird at that time.

With hindsight, I realise that when he would tell me "I'm not in the mood" it was his way to tell me he felt like retreating...I would take it like a lack of respect, now I see things differently.

anthony

04-04-2008, 08:24 AM

Wendy, you are in chat carers, please remember that.... we sufferers DO NOT come into the carer area and abuse or argue with them, as carers DO NOT come into the PTSD chat forum and do the same with us. There is a clear distinction for a good reason, so opposite spectrum's, experience and points of view are not argued here the same as the exact issues that are often caused in the home in the first place.

She Cat

04-04-2008, 09:39 AM

Anthony,

Point taken. I will remember not to cross the boundary.

unbroken

04-04-2008, 11:43 AM

Unbroken, your post almost made me cry because you are so sweet!
.......
Again, told my husband the same thing, and he chose to stay with me. It makes me so happy and hopeful to see that there are other couples who are working through this and making it work. :smile:
Thanks, Lucky, I can only hope she thinks the same of me. I know I have my moments when she doesn't like something I said or did, only I get to blame it on being a guy and that usually gets me out of trouble! lol

As I read comments from people here I learn more and am able to understand things better. There's so much going on in her life right now that stresses her out, but she still calls me a couple times a day, even if she's just saying good night. We haven't known each other very long but we both feel such a strong bond to each other, I can't explain it. I think it's great that you and your hubby are able to be here and help each other, as well as the rest of us.

Sometimes I just need to vent, but none of my friends would understand, so it's hard to talk about how I feel with just anyone. So I'm grateful that people are willing to share and open up about what they go through.

thanks...

becvan

04-04-2008, 04:31 PM

Time constraints on healing just is stupid as far as I am concerned. It's like telling someone with cancer that they only have 9 weeks to get better. .....

I wanted to highlight this point. As throughout this thread, the language I keep hearing is "bad behavior." Shutting down, shutting out, etc.. is "bad" behavior.

I disagree. It's a coping mechanism. It's not done to hurt anyone. To ignore anyone. In fact it's not done TO anyone. It's simply a way for the sufferer to attempt to cope when the turmoil of their minds are too much to handle any longer.

Is this healthy? Hell no. Not even close unless in very small doses. Is it "bad" or "abusive" behavior? NO. Not in any wild stretch of the imagination. It is a survival coping mechanism that is vital to surviving this cursed disorder. Saying that this is bad or abusive is the same as telling someone in a manic episode that cleaning or making lists is bad. They just shouldn't do it because it hurts your feelings.

Learning new and healthy coping mechanisms takes a long long time. If someone is in the middle of a shutdown coping mechanism, trying to force them out of it is only going to get the door slammed in your face harder. It's not the time or place to address this.

Also putting time limits on this coping mechanism is completely unfair, irresponsible, and ludicrous. Hence why I have quoted She Cat. Her comparison is dead on.

If you, the carer, can not wait till after the sufferers crisis is over (and that is exactly what a shut down is) to discuss better boundaries and learning a more healthy coping skill; then, IMHO, you were not meant for this relationship to begin with.

I see a lot of carers past baggage (previous abuse) being dragged over into dealing with sufferers. Understand something. You are choosing to be with a sufferer. A lot of our coping skills are unhealthy until we learn better. Some never will. 99% of sufferers are NOT abusive. We are simply trying to survive. If you have to have time limits on shutdowns, any type of symptom attacks, then I think you need to rethink being in this relationship in the first place. If you feel this is selfish, rude, uncalled for, abusive, mean , bad behavior, etc... then why are you in this relationship to begin with?

We are sick. We didn't choose this. And most of us are trying to get better.

bec

Nicolette

04-04-2008, 04:53 PM

If you feel this is selfish, rude, uncalled for, abusive, mean , bad behavior, etc... then why are you in this relationship to begin with?

From a Carers' point of view understanding PTSD takes time and experience. Anthony gave me literature to read early on and even though he emphasised it could be bad, until you go down that road with a sufferer you really don't understand what you are getting into. It also may occur that a suffer may initially be well and then months down the track is triggered and gets very ill. I am sure when Sisu signed up for a relationship with her boyfriend he did not say to her sometimes I may shut you out which could be months on end....if Anthony had said that to me upfront I would have never got involved as, while I don't wish for him or anyone to be ill, that's not the type of relationship I want as, in my world, shutting out is pretty close to checking out of the relationship.

No-one is questioning how terrible PTSD is or whether someone is trying to heal themselves. This discussion was, and still should be about a Carer's point of view on what they can accommodate and what they can't. Whether the sufferers' actions are justifiable in accordance with their illness is a whole separate topic. I am sure PTSD sufferers would not stay in a relationship with a person who caused them daily, continuous, high levels of stress which only made the sufferer worse. It can be argued that the shoe can be put on the other foot and an opposite view point can apply to the sufferer.

The point here was how a Carer can deal with shut outs and for how long a carer can sustain that type of relationship. It is NOT about the symptoms, cause or justification of the illness.

No-one here wants anyone to suffer. No-one disputes PTSD can be hell on earth.

I don't understand why the point is being missed.:crazy:

becvan

04-04-2008, 04:59 PM

Well I am a carer. My point was.. in case in got missed in all that.. that if you are not prepared for shut ins.. don't be in the relationship.. ( I do realize that not all carers have the slightest clue when beginning a relationship, however once they know it becomes their choice.) and that the time for exploring this boundary is NOT while a sufferer is in the shut in!

No where did I see any question on HOW to deal with them.. if that is a question I will be more than happy to share what I know works.. from both perspectives.

And yes, it is about the symptoms when such heavily emotionally worded judgment words, like bad behavior and abuse are constantly being thrown about.

Did I better clarify my point?

bec

Nicolette

04-04-2008, 05:11 PM

But you are not a Carer in an adult relationship with another consenting adult who has PTSD. I am sure I read that Sisu said that it was 8 months into the relationship when this occurred. Once it happens what do you do? This is the first and only time it has happened from what I understand. Does this mean she has to "live with it" because she agreed to be in a relationship with someone who has PTSD - an illness she does not really understand? I have been with Anthony for over a year and I still get surprises at how PTSD can rear its ugly head. Have I left - no way. If Anthony disappeared for 2 months without a word...would I leave....I don't know but it would be really hard to rationalise that he wanted to be in a relationship with me if he did it.

There are many many posts over this forum about how Carers don't understand PTSD. Bec, you come from a point of understanding as you have PTSD yourself so you can identify and appreciate what Matt goes through. Does Sisu have a clue what her boyfriend really goes through - I doubt it.

becvan

04-04-2008, 05:51 PM

NO NO NO. I don't mean she has to live with it! OMG.. lol

She is in her (her right? :eek:) learning curve. Basically she just got the hard slap upside the face with PTSD. After this shut out.. it's her choice.. OMG.. lol too funny.

While she is in the first shut out.. having just learned of it.. no hard lines should be drawn. No demands made. Wait till after to sit down and discuss this. If, at this point, the line is drawn "no shut downs" then she should leave. As that is just not reasonable.

Point taken about my insight.You are dead on with that. Thanks for the reminder! *grins wickedly* which reminds me.. that you also are with someone in management phase.. and who does very well at that.. not full blown uncontrolled.. whole different ball game.. which requires a lot more leeway.. yet stricter boundaries at the same time! :wink:

bec

Nicolette

04-04-2008, 06:03 PM

:occasion:

anthony

04-04-2008, 06:10 PM

Yes, I do remind Nicolette of this often, especially when referencing people here at times, in that she did not get me through the bad times of my PTSD, the times she reads about here. Often Nicolette does become quite baffled at some things said here compared to knowing me and what I am like to live with. It is difficult for any carer depending upon when and at what stage a sufferer is. All of us have relapse during our life, though not likely ever to the extent of uncontrolled.

Kerrie did wear that from me... and those who do live with a person off uncontrolled PTSD will live through hell dealing with it. Someone in management is quite different to deal with.... nothing of a hard struggle compared to uncontrolled PTSD.

becvan

04-04-2008, 06:28 PM

Hehe.. I think Nicolette and I are are on a see saw... each on our own just sit on the ground.. together we can balance it!

As a parent of a sufferer and a sufferer I tend to be more understanding in some areas, where as Nicolette is much more hard headed about it.. and in others vice versa!

LOL yes I am in a off beat mood! :)

bec

Nicolette

04-04-2008, 06:49 PM

Someone in management is quite different to deal with.... nothing of a hard struggle compared to uncontrolled PTSD.

Geez, I dunno :wink:

True and valid points. Based on what I know now and if I was not with Anthony and met someone with PTSD who was not in management.... would I get involved..........NO way! No disrespect but I wouldn't want to live like that. Mild egg shells are bad enough to walk on :rolleyes:

As a parent of a sufferer and a sufferer I tend to be more understanding in some areas, where as Nicolette is much more hard headed about it.. and in others vice versa!

True! True!

Oh well Bec, if worst comes to worst, we can always go to the park and get along on the see-saw :rofl:

sisu

05-04-2008, 12:26 AM

This is a great thread. I am learning a lot!!

Yes my ex and I met last May and he seemed in total control of himself, his life, his emotions, etc. He did mention ptsd in passing after a couple months together, but said he was under control with meds and because he seemed in control I just accepted that. I now know that meds alone is not the answer ~ at the time I knew *nothing* about ptsd. Hindsight...I wished that he would have given me some information or encouraged me to learn about it so I could be more educated in my reactions, viewpoints and feelings. (I personally think that it should be the responsibility of the ptsd sufferer to help educate the people in their lives...not just assume they understand)

I would never allow a person without ptsd to treat me like my ex did. Although nothing he did was actually abusive....he did ignore my calls and emails...detached himself from my life....and said I needed to find someone else better than him because he was too flawed. Normally that would tell me ~ its over...move on sister....we are done here.

I do realize that it is a *choice* that we all have as carers to stay or walk away. But after 8 months, and being 41 years old....I made a huge investment in our relationship. My kids loved him, I loved him, my parents loved him, etc. He was part of our family ... and I was part of his. It was not so easy just to walk away....at least for me it wasn't.

It is beyond my thinking, as a person without ptsd, why someone would ever walk away from a relationship that worked. We had a wonderful relationship...no problems ever. We completed each other. But, I guess with the stress of his job and his problems with his kids....it got to be too much. It streched his fragile mind too far and he had to retreat.

Because I tend to have a soft heart, I had a really hard time walking away because I knew that the things he was doing and saying were because of his clouded viewpoint that he has right now. But, he is very stubborn in his viewpoint...not sure if this is the case with all ptsd sufferers. He *knows* he is right and does not believe me when I say that am willing to learn and take this journey with him. Maybe somewhere in his mind he thinks that it ever gets too much for me that I will be gone....so he left first. It saves him a little pain which is something that he cannot handle.

This is not something that I bargained for....but I would have stuck with him....he just would not allow it. No one is perfect. We all have our crosses to bear....some are just more visible than others.

Sisu

nyc

08-04-2008, 06:36 PM

I hear you Sisu. I would have stayed with mine too. But, he pushed so very hard, was manipulative and self destructive. He really gave me no choice.

My "friend" definitely needed to do his healing on his own. And he is. He's in there every week working on stuff. So, I feel more positive about having let him go and see what will come through further down the road. Maybe nothing. I feel ok with that now.

I believe these people that we love are just doing the best they can.

I don't feel like I was co-dependent or needy when I entered the relationship. I was just someone who fell in love with a great guy. Everything went totally haywire with the therapy. I turned into a nutcase as well cause I had no understanding. But, now things feel ok. I know to just let him be to do whatever it is he needs to do.

I saw a tiny light recently. After a 7 month shut down- that began soon after the therapy started - he chose to see me recently. I'm not exactly sitting at home waiting for him to " choose to see me". And he's not exactly my deam guy right now. But, I am glad to see some progress and movement in his attiute towards me and himself. He didn't run away. He had positive things to say. He felt close to what I used to know. Perhaps this is what recovery starts to look like? I don't know.

I will always believe that he is a great guy despite all the shitty coping mechanisms.The ones that shut him down.

Something wonderful that has resulted is a really simple feeling of caring about someone no matter what. It is unconditional. All I want is for him to heal because he did not deserve any of what happened.