Are The Sufferers' Actions Justifiable In Accordance With Their Illness?

[becvan]

Well, lets do this people. Healthy debate (no name calling please!) Hope you don't mind Nicolette, I borrowed your sentence for the title!

So.. what is justifiable behavior for the sufferer considering the illness and what is drawing the line?

bec

[Nicolette]

Good debate topic Bec. I also think it is good you have clarified that is a debate so no-one misunderstands the intent.

Personally, for me to enter this debate, I think justifiable would become entangled with acceptable and tolerable based on my life experiences. I am not qualified to assess what is justifiable medically in accordance with the symptoms and effects of PTSD. While I try to educate my self some of my views are based on morals and values instilled into me as a child with a dash of life experiences thrown in.

I would also go as far as saying that just because something is justifiable to me does not necessarily mean that I could live with it or would choose to do so.

[becvan]

LOL, but isn't that what we all do? I mean really, next to knowledge is our experiences and beliefs... I think justifiable is always entangled with acceptance and toleration. We are human!

So.. my first addition to this is rages.

Are rages justifiable?

Well, they are a well known symptom of PTSD. However, they can be the most damaging and the one that most easily crosses a line into abuse. So I think this is the most dangerous one (physically that is.)

I don't think they are so much justifiable, as they are understandable.. at first. I think that some hard lines need to be drawn here. Getting hit by fists or objects, or screamed nasty names is just not right.

So I think with this.. a good talk about boundary settings with this aspect is worked on is imperative. A safe room for the person to go and wack pillows or something, away from everyone else.. for exampe.

If they are hitting you. Leave now. Talk later. If they won't even consider working on this. Leave now. Don't bother talking. If they are willing to work on this.. set up safety boundaries, where it's very clearly understood what is and isn't acceptable, and how the sufferer can release this (punching bag, pillows..) while working on it is a definite. The carer needs to stick to the boundaries.. and so does the sufferer! Have a clear plan for how to work on this (medications and therapy, anger management, exercise.. etc.)

bec

[Nicolette]

Have a clear plan for how to work on this (medications and therapy, anger management, exercise.. etc.)

A big key to all of this I think. To have a plan means you have discussed the topic and what could possibly happen as you are trying to prepare for it. Good point Bec.

[Damiea]

Use of drugs and other "self help" things such as out right denial that the sufferer has done or is doing anything wrong in any way.. in a household where there are 3 young children living with the sufferer at home every day.

For clarification.. when the sufferer knows they have PTSD yet denies that any of their verbal, physical actions are affecting the children or others around them and believes its all every one else's fault and will not rationally discuss the issues.

[linasmom]

Since this thread is open to sufferers, I'd like to chime in a bit regarding shut outs. My experiences with shut outs have a different angle than the one that was discussed in a different thread, but thought that I should share how I, as a sufferer, tend to shut out my husband -

Many many times, I will race around the house like a maniac doing this and doing that - running the vacuum, straightening up, doing anything to preoccupy myself when a lot of times, none of those things are urgent matters, but to me, any sort of "mess" in house sets me off a lot of times. While doing this, I will start raging in my own head because as I'm trying to "straighten out the mess" my husband will be relaxing on the couch, surfing the internet, doing whatever, and I will just fume that he is not helping me. The thing is - I never say anything. Instead, I slam doors, I huff and puff, I glare like a mad woman, I probably have fire coming out of my nose but I say nothing - until BAM, he asks me what's wrong and I fly off the handle that there's tons of things to be done and he's not helping. Problem? I didn't tell him that I would like some help.

The interesting thing is - I've actually thought on many occasions that I DID tell him, because as I fume in my head how pissed off I am that he's not helping I somehow think that I verbalize it at the same time, but I don't! I have internal conversations that are so strong I actually think I'm verbalizing. And now that I think about it, I think I don't verbalize them because I don't want to rage - I'm trying to protect him from my "messy head" but in the end, it fails!

Do I realize that this is a failed coping mechanism - yes. Do I still do it - yes. Am I working on it - yes. If someone were to put a time frame on how long I had to fix this - I would tell them to leave me now, that they are not the right person for me.

I realize this is slightly different than the original debate in a different thread, but this may also be another shutting out mechanism that some carers here have experienced and I just wanted to share as a sufferer.

Best,
Rachel

[Cowgirl]

This debate started in a thread about shut outs, so I'll start there with my comments. People do what they must do to protect themselves. Some of the protective mechanisms are unhealthy but typical. The shut outs are a part of this. If someone shuts out for a year or more (my DH did this in his past, before I was around), that is not healthy. It can lead to divorce. It can lead to financial ruin. But it happens. And sometimes that is necessary. NECESSARY? Yes, as sometimes a person has to hit bottom before they can want to get better and to learn better, healthier coping mechanisms.

Now, how does a life partner cope with that? Not well, usually! It would take a Mother Theresa type to stick it out for over a year of being shut out and having divorce papers filed against him/her, when the PTSD spouse decides they need to be alone, and that they are bad for everyone around them. Yet, it may be necessary, ultimately, for the PTSD sufferer to go through divorce, break-up of a family, and financial ruin.

So is this "justifiable"? I don't think I understand that part of the question, honestly. I think it is not uncommon. I think it may even be necessary for some people to realize they need to make some changes in their lives.

Now, when one gets into other behaviors, the term "justifiable" makes more sense to me. It is not "justifiable" to be physically violent to another human being, and our laws pretty much universally condemn domestic violence. That is a "coping mechanism" that is so dysfunctional as to bring the person to hit bottom in a jail cell, which is definitely society's way of saying no, this is not justifiable. Shut outs are better.

[2quilt]

Linasmom, I used to do the same thing! I used to empty the dishwasher and growl at my husband because he was being a slug on the couch while I did all the work. Now I make a conscious effort to say, "Sweet, Darling Husband, my Favorite Husband, Please go move the clothes into the dryer...NOW."

Because if I didn't say NOW, he would not act on my orders until 3 hours later because his seat was already warm.

Then, he would get up and walk toward the laundryroom.

A little while later, I would notice that there was no dryer noise.

"Sweet, Loving Husband O Mine, Did you put the clothes in the dryer?"

"Yes."


"Did you turn the dryer ...ON?"

"You didn't ask me to."

[dlross]

If I am trying to justify a behaviour, does that not imply that I know it is harmful, and am trying to find a way to make it acceptable? This in turn assumes that I am aware of what I am doing and how it affects those around me. If somone is truly acting without this awareness, I think they cannot be faulted.

I personally did not know for a long time that some of my dissociated states ammounted to an emotional disappearing act that triggered everything from fear to rage in those affected. Once made aware of that fact, I was open to hearing what would mimimize the impact of what is largely a choiceless process for me. Over time I have become somewhat more able to identify these dissociated staes within myself, and can then at least name for others what is going on, as a means of reassuring them that they are not crazy or have done nothing wrong.
The next step is learning the things that will ease me back into 'association' if you will. If I lived on a desert island, there would be no impetus to do so, but to the extent that I am affecting others, I need to be willing to work on this stuff. This is about taking responsibility for my every action in this life.

Anyone who attempts to absolve me of that reponsibility by justifying bad behaviour is doing me and themselves a great disservice.

[Damiea]

Ohh very good point dlross! I think that was something I was trying to put across also! I don't think it matter exactly what it is that is going on what matters is if the sufferer or carer KNOWS something is going on that is causing issues yet they do NOTHING.

communication is the key to everything.. no matter if it is something like a shut out or any other action. If say the sufferer KNOWS they are shutting out the carer and KNOWS it is hurting the carer yet does NOTHING not even a message saying they are ok and still love the carer every now and then .. and the carer KNOWS the sufferer KNOWS what they are doing is hurting the carer.. that is where I believe a boundary is crossed over to uncaring and causes action to be taken.

There is a difference to being in total denial of the situation and believing everything will get better if you just wait it out... to thinking you must not let your feelings get hurt when someone is hurting you because they can't help them selfs even when they know they are hurting you.

[2quilt]

dlross, you are correct!
I agree completely.

[becvan]

Wow are you guys a bunch of hard asses.. LOL just kidding.

I find it interesting that things like disassociation are being reckoned as an unacceptable behavior.

What is do nothing? How do the carers define that? Is do nothing not doing what you think? Is do nothing working on symptoms alone? Is do nothing something else?

So the line being drawn here is the carer is getting hurt. What about baby steps to learning new ways to cope?

Denial is also a stage. It's a step we all have to take at some point. Should sufferers be tossed on their ass simply for being in this stage?

Justifiable is not being asked here as a question to dismiss responsibility of the sufferer or give excuses to the sufferer, it's asking where and how the lines are drawn with each symptom from a CARER's perspective. We sufferers have a completely different viewpoint on this (and yes your input is appreciated) however us Sufferers need to openly discuss this to discover our limitations and viewpoints also.

Please remember that I am both an active carer and sufferer.

bec

[Nicolette]

Please remember that I am both an active carer and sufferer.

You are the wise one Bec as you get to see both sides. If only I could really understand PTSD as I still don't really get it. :rolleyes:

[becvan]

Wise one? OMG.. lol far from it... and truly.. you don't really want to understand it as much as I.. because then you would have it... and I wouldn't wish this on my mother.. and that says a lot!

[linasmom]

Hmm, I have a question -

How does one define a "carer"? Is a "carer" someone who has been with their boy/girlfriend for less than a year and they don't live together?

To me, the word "carer" could mean two very different things here:

1. To care (as in affection) for someone with PTSD
2. To care for, as in, actively helping to manage the sufferers daily life.

The responses to this thread are going to vary significantly between these two individuals.

Best,
Rachel

[becvan]

1. To care (as in affection) for someone with PTSD
2. To care for, as in, actively helping to manage the sufferers daily life.


Very good question. I see a carer as one who deals with and helps a sufferer daily( or close to daily.) Just because you care about someone doesn't mean your "caring" for them. Be interesting to see other takes on this question.

bec

[anthony]

This forum was changed to "carer" from "spouse" for that exact reason, as a "carer" of a sufferer could be a partner, family member or friend. The word "carer" was chosen for that exact reason, to mean a person who cares for a sufferer without relationship coming into the equation.

[Damiea]

I would think that it doesn't matter if you are in a relationship with a sufferer.. but that as long as you care for the sufferer and wish to be more someone who can help then doing harm by understanding what they are dealing with and going through then you are a carer. I think most come here to get knowledge so they can better understand and know what to do and what not to do in regards to the sufferer in their life.

[linasmom]

With regards to a sufferers' actions being "justifiable" (by their carer), that's quite subjective and vast if we are talking about the difference between two people who are in a very serious committed relationship or two people who are dating.

I would not expect my boyfriend of 6 months, who does not live with me, to excuse a "shut out" of weeks or more.

However, I do expect my husband to, if that should ever happen (and it could!). Why? Because he made a commitment to me when we married and he knew before we wed that I had PTSD.

I think it all comes down to the commitment that the two individuals made together. If there is no commitment, then how can there be expectations?

[Nicolette]

I would not expect my boyfriend of 6 months, who does not live with me, to excuse a "shut out" of weeks or more.

However, I do expect my husband to, if that should ever happen (and it could!). Why? Because he made a commitment to me when we married and he knew before we wed that I had PTSD.

I beg to differ. Anthony has had my commitment since early on into our relationship. When he told me about his PTSD and I didn't run the other way, I made a non verbal commitment to accept his illness. It way my choice at that time to leave or stay as it has been going forward. I consider Anthony my partner as he does me. We make plans for the future and will marry one day but that is not high on the list of priorities right now with so many other things going on. Does that mean we are not committed as we have not taken any formal vows - I don't think so.

Personally, I do not believe that a wedding ring means I should put up with more than I do without one. If I am in a relationship I am committed full stop. It does not change.

[linasmom]

Nicolette,

I simply said that "I would not" - me personally.

I'm the last one to preach to about "marriage". I didn't have a wedding. I don't wear a ring and neither does my husband.

I was trying to point out that commitment, between two people, is the deciding factor. If Joe Black has only dated Susi Q for 4 months and there was a commitment made between the two of them (though we don't know what that commitment is) then I would hope they would stick to that commitment, whatever it is.

[Nicolette]

Point taken Rachel.

I was just committed from the start and I don't see how time should change that :rolleyes:.

You are correct in that the commitment is the deciding factor. :thumbs-up

[Damiea]

But that brings back the point if one is willing to commit but doesn't know if the other is committed to them or not. It goes back to the communication thing again I believe.. the one who is unsure of the situation and is getting hurt.. its most likely because they are unsure because there was / is no talk before hand or during this time of the issues that have come up that they are left to deal with not knowing exactly where they stand in the others point of view regarding the relationship so are unsure how to react or think.

[neverforget]

communication is the key to everything.. no matter if it is something like a shut out or any other action. If say the sufferer KNOWS they are shutting out the carer and KNOWS it is hurting the carer yet does NOTHING not even a message saying they are ok and still love the carer every now and then .. and the carer KNOWS the sufferer KNOWS what they are doing is hurting the carer.. that is where I believe a boundary is crossed over to uncaring and causes action to be taken.

Exactly.

That's what I couldn't accept about my past relationship and was so unhappy about, and that's why I decided to break up.
I'm quite patient, and as I'm an independant person myself I could understand that my ex needed time for himself, to think and make his thoughts clear.

But it was too hard not getting any sort of explanation after the shut outs.
I felt alone, didn't understand what happened and I had this painful feeling that we simply were unable to communicate.
This lack of communication was obvious to me, but the thing is it wasn't the case for him, he just didn't realise it hurt me.

[linasmom]

I think, and of course this is simply my own opinion, one should then treat the situation like they would if they were engaged in any other relationship - if someone you were dating did not have PTSD and they shut you out, would you be unsure of how to react?

Best,
Rachel

[samsara]

OK, here goes.
I wasn’t going to share my story that relates to this from a couple of weeks ago. I had planned to, but then felt so drained after it all happened. It took me close to a week to put my head back to normal. Also, I didn’t want to jump the gun, wanted to see how it turned around. But I did journal it privately.

A couple of weeks ago, BB (my love with PTSD) fell down again and shut me out - again. He’s overseas and I’m here in Australia. But he texts millions of times a day EVERY day or calls. And I know he has fallen down if I don’t hear from him for a few days, especially if it is of a Friday. Friday is freaky fingers crossed day for me – it’s his day off and he thinks – too much.

BB has battled the huge war against self-medication/self-hate infused PTSD, a warfare I’m sure you guys are very familiar with after frequenting and reading stories on this forum, and of course your own very personal experiences.

My heart broke into a million pieces when he did it the last time.
A million pieces because I realized I couldn’t do it any more, that I may have to let go.
A million pieces because I knew I couldn’t.
A million pieces because I was a mess.

This is a text I sent after day 3 of no sign from him. I sent several before, but I am relating this to shut outs and how they affect carers and how we communicate how that affects us right?

“Hi, I love you -- this is just really hard sometimes and I can’t help freaking out. This far into the plan, (coming to meet him in Asia en-route to Australia) I need to know where you are at, at least each day. My intuition is on red alert the past couple of days and really full on today.

By the fifth day of no sign from him, calling his work, and finally his home number to find out he was alive and fine and on his way to work.

This situation we have is two parts killer/ one part easier, with respect to time difference, communication possibilities and just general difficulties with not being able to physically see and touch one another.

So I freak out more, I start questioning everything. There’s alarm bells going off in my head. I’m crying , which starts confusing me as I can only ever cry when I am angry…then I’m all shite, there is no way I will be able to do any work today -- Faaark!

“What are you doing? You want a life of this?
You want to help him get to Australia.
You want to be so careless with your heart?
No way! No way! You’re a freak. The queen of fools!
Don’t you ever learn?”

Anyway, so back to the phone call.

S: BB!!!! Oh thank god! What the hell?

B: Long story, can you call back in 20 minutes? I’ll text you when you can call me back.

So I hang up.
Feelings of relief that he is OK.
Feelings of anger, but mainly feelings of relief that he is alive.
I think to myself – “He’s OK, you can go back to your life now – go have a shower, get on with your day. He’s not going to call back like he says. Whatever, phew, he’s OK. That’s all that matters. He’s OK, he’s OK.

Then, 20 minutes pass, an hour. I’m getting angry now.
Who does he think he is?
Who does he think I am?
I have a life to lead too, I can’t just drop everything when he decides it appropriate, when it suits him, when he’s actually sober. He’s controlling me, ironically controlling me while he desires me to control him. I can’t, nor do I want to control him!
Oh gad! How has he managed to do this?

And at this point I freak out. I’m really freaking out now. About everything, I want to call it off before it’s really gotten going. The self protection alarm signals are raging inside.

So I text him. I still have the texts as a reminder. This is how it unfolded.

An hour later.

S: This is so F***ked! Why are you doing this? I am beginning to think this is not going to work, I am actually f***king losing my sh*t here! A 5 min call or at least a f***king text! Is that really such a request of you? Grant me some peace of mind PLEASE!

BB: I’m just now on the bus to work, I’m late, we talk in an hour I swear.

An hour later

BB: Are you super pissed at me?

40 mins later.

S: Yep.

2 mins later.

BB: Fu*k!

One minute later

BB: What can I do to make it better? I’m sorry baby, I know I’m a world class fu*k up!

Two minutes later

BB: hey! I didn’t realize I was fu*king with you so bad. I’ve just been on a wander lately, ripping my heart out, trying to leave this pisspot. I’m really sorry for being a loser!

I’m tempted to respond to ease his pain, I’m ignited by words he uses, but I’m too mad – I feel frozen. Then I feel this huge surge of anger and sadness combined and I somehow beat this out, like my heart took over my hand.

S: That’s a cop out saying you’re a f**k up. I’m sick of that excuse. And it is an insult to me because I know I am not in love with a f**k up. I am however feeling like sh*t because you don’t seem to care about how your actions affect me. I have been crying my ****ing heart out for days – I can’t sleep, had to call in sick today and I am now an emotional wreck! And all because you think you can just pick and choose when I am allowed to be in your life.

BB: f**k! I didn’t see it like that. I’ve been super busy at work, my heads a dogs breakfast, I constantly beat myself up and then do dumb sh*t like fu*k off, drugs, drinking and negative thinking. I fu*king hate me, and never throw into the equation that you love me. I never wanted you to cry because of me again. I feel like sh*t and I’m sorry for being a loser.

I’m still angry! Is he fu*king with me? Is this what they do these people with trauma? Manipulate your feelings with their sorrow fused bullshi*t?

Bullsh*t! I’m a mess here, f*ck him! He’s just fu*king with me. They can all go to hell. I choose life! So I begin to text him just that.

But I am interrupted…I ignore the text I have received and continue to write and send mine. And I send it. Bam. Done! No more. F8ck him. I gotta look after myself and I can’t make him do anything, especially not from the other side of the world. Don’t let this get to you. Go have a shower. Time to get out of this house.

S: You’re not sorry. You’re just saying that to make yourself feel better. If you were sorry you would have me on the phone right now, sorting it out. You don’t want to sort it out, you just wana feel like sh*t, you just seem to wana wallow, it’s alike a routine for you. You don’t want me to help you fight away the bullsh*t! Well guess what? Fu*k you!

The text I had not read as I wrote and sent mine.

BB: I won’t ditch you ever again, and to try and make it up to you, I’m cutting out drugs and booze until I see your face again. And with that I can stop acting the fool and make knowing me worth it to you.

Straight away, before I even get to have a shower.

BB: Baby, I’m at work for another hour and as soon as I am done I will have you on the phone.

Yeah I’m sure you will. Ha!. Whatever! OK, shower time. RRRARAGH! Wanker!

I get out of the shower, my phone is beeping,

BB: Can you call me at work? I can talk now and I want to speak to you badly!

So I think. Shit! WTF? This all I have wanted for 6 days, and now I don’t want it. I don’t want to yell at him. ZI don’t want to make him as upset as me. I have no more words left anyway! I have thunk them and thunk them. I am so manic right now. I want to kill him and hug him and hold him and then kill him. Shit!
I can’t leave him hanging. I’ll have to do something.

S: Are you sure you want me to do that? I’m pretty bloody messy right now!

BB: Call me NOW! I’m going to make it better.

I stall. Oh no! Shit! Should I? I feel a bit out of control! What if I say something I regret? What if I make it worse?

I call him.

Now I could explain the 3 hour conversation we had. But I won’t. I’ve taken up enough room already.

I got angry.
He said it was justified.
He kept cutting me off when I said “next time…”
To say, there will be no next times, I will never cut you out again. I won’t shut you out. You’re something to believe in. You’re everything to me. It won’t happen again….

But he did go on the wagon, and he’s still on it and he sounds great and I think we may have made a break through.

Who knows?

Maybe not.

I think it will be good, I think it will be fine.

At least I finally explained how his actions affect me. And it also showed me how much respect I have for myself and what my limits are.

And it won’t happen again. At least, I won’t be hanging around to be his lover if it happens again anyway. Or will I?

See? That is the conundrum. I don’t really know. Hence the screen name Samsara. Is it endless? Or is the suffering of our love coming to an end?

At the moment I feel like it is coming to an end. At the moment I am very positive – more than ever. And I guess that’s the best I can do right now.

[Damiea]

Very well wrote Samsara.

Every ones situation is different but yet I do believe the emotions we feel are near the same in any situation.. the fear for the sufferers life, the fear of not knowing, the pain from wondering why it's happening to begin with. Everything, including the love that gives the hope for a better future even when something bad happens.

I truly hope things work out for you two and the future will be bright and happy no matter what bumps you over come along the way.