Debate SSRI's - The Evidence For and Against [Archive]

upstream

06-04-2008, 01:43 AM

I'd like to debate the current evidence regarding the effectiveness and safety of SSRI's (Celexa, Zoloft, Prozac, Lexapro, Paxil, Luvox, dapoxetine, etc). I am rather biased against these things, because of my own personal experiences with the drugs over a decade ago. I'll put forth the evidence against. If someone has some evidence for them, I welcome you to post it in response.

Effectiveness:
A few months ago, a meta-analysis of nearly 50 studies on SSRI's was completed. The results show that SSRI's are no more effective than a sugar pill in all but the most severly depressed patients. This suggests that benefits from SSRI's are nothing more than a placebo affectin the majority of patients. It has been suggested that the drug's amphetamine affects profile is what helps the severe cases.
http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045

"There seems little reason to prescribe antidepressant medication to any but the most severely depressed patients, unless alternative treatments have failed to provide a benefit," says study researcher Irving Kirsch, PhD, of England's University of Hull.
Studies have shown that aerobic exercise is more effective than anti-depressants. It has also shown that exercise alone is more effective than exercising while taking anti-depressants.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0898.htm

Safety:
In 2004 a study was released that shows that Prozac (an SSRI) significantly increases the occurance of suicide ideation in children.
http://www.naturalnews.com/002606.html

Studies and findings also show that SSRI's more than double the occurance of suicide in adults, and increase the occurance of violent behavior:
http://www.naturalnews.com/019342.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/18/opinion/18abramson_.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

The most disturbing finding was that more than twice as many depressed adults on new antidepressants kill themselves than those taking placeboes. The difference was 8.4 versus 3.6 suicides per 1,000 patients a year, respectively.

Confessions of an Rx Drug Pusher, and her experiences with SSRI's:
http://www.gwenolsen.com/

Footage of an FDA hearing on adverse reactions to Prozac:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxJomeak4V4

The drugs have other side effects, including sexual dysfunction:
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/LongTermSSRI.htm
http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/ssri_side_effects.htm

linasmom

06-04-2008, 02:58 AM

Roo

06-04-2008, 03:58 AM

I think a key statement is that these drugs can be of help in severe depression. That has been the case with me. There have been side effects, and I am constantly tracking my symptoms and experiences. I recently agreed to an increase in my med (Paxil) because I have been in a severe depression since January. The increase is making a positive difference.

The medication is not the only tool, though. That is something always to remember. I have to do many proactive things to take care of myself...and it's easy to think that the "little pink pills" are doing everything. Nada!

I would love to be able to stop taking this medication, but evidence from eleven years' use -- specific symptoms being significantly reduced when nothing else affected them, even after a decade of psychotherapy -- tells me that I do need this medication. I was very lucky in that the first medication I tried worked. I recall waking up on the 16th day after starting Paxil, and feeling something utterly new --> a certain weight was simply gone.

I have experienced two major depressive episodes since then; both have been accompanied by huge stresses, and my traumas date from birth (and before) so I know that my brain and nervous system have been permanently hard-wired for a "freeze" reaction...

My doctor said to me once, when I told him that I wanted to stop taking Paxil (and he is very prudent about prescribing anything), that I could consider my situation to be like that of a person who has diabetes. "If you told me that you wanted to stop taking insulin in that case, what do you think I would say?"

I think that SSRIs and similar drugs are too easily doled out to people whose chemistry will not be significantly altered in a positive way.

I recall, during the three-month period in 1996 when I had the Paxil Rx in my purse and was agonizing about whether to fill it, that my decision to try the drug was "tipped" by seeing the effects of new medications on people who suffered from schizophrenia. I was working in the developmental services field at the time -- several people I worked with had both developmental handicaps and psychiatric disorders. Two people with schizophrenia had huge, positive changes in symptoms -- changes that lasted. One young man's mother simply cried with relief...and told me that her son (who was in his early 20s) had hugged her recently...for the first time ever.

That was the pivot point on which I turned to the medication. I don't regret the decision. There have been side effects, and I have to keep watch on myself. But a balanced approach, which may include psychotropic medication, can make a real difference when symptoms are more intrinsic (i.e., like my medical traumas as an infant) rather than situational.

I had a friend/colleague who started taking Prozac about three weeks before he killed himself. This was in 1994, when the SSRI drugs were still quite new. The debate was raging even then, and those of us who knew B. wondered if the drug had tipped him over the edge. Of course, we will never know. But it is one thing that I remain mindful of.

I see the choice to try a new medication (SSRI) as a crap-shoot (as in gambling). It's a risk; a venture into the unknown. Anything is possible. It's not an easy choice to make. I weigh the pros and cons regularly and am willing to live with the consequences.

This thread is a great one -- very informative and will no doubt spark lots of conversation. Thanks for starting it :smile:

Roo

upstream

06-04-2008, 05:27 AM

Roo,

I loved reading your post and your perspective, but I have to take issue with your doctor.

My doctor said to me once, when I told him that I wanted to stop taking Paxil (and he is very prudent about prescribing anything), that I could consider my situation to be like that of a person who has diabetes. "If you told me that you wanted to stop taking insulin in that case, what do you think I would say?"

There is a difference between a physical disease and a mental disorder, and I believe it is inappropriate to compare the two. Dr. Jeffrey Schaler put it this way:

Think of how when people get angry with one another they inevitably resort to some sort of diagnosis. They say 'You're crazy!' 'You're mentaly ill!' You're paranoid!' Can you imagine someone getting angry with someone and saying 'You have diabetes!' 'You have Parkinson's disease!'

In a physical illness a biological function is breaking down and it is medically proven through bloodwork. In a mental disorder someone is judging and labeling your feelings, thoughts, and behaviors to be a disorder. Big difference.

Roo

06-04-2008, 05:45 AM

Thanks, Upstream, for your thoughts. I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with your perspective.

There are so many factors to take into account when considering an individual's illness -- whatever its root/base. In my own case, major depression has been a lifelong challenge and a direct result of trauma in infancy, which included necessary medical interventions to keep me alive. Unfortunately, this was also 1959, when neonatal intensive care units did not allow parents or "holders" to physically connect with babies. I spent my first three months in a box, literally --> an incubator.

There is concrete and continually mounting evidence that physical bonding, holding, mirroring, gazing, etc. (or lack thereof) will have a major impact on the infant's developing brain and immune/endocrine systems. I've recently studied two excellent books that you might want to look into: A General Theory of Love, by Lewis Thomas MD et. al, and The Trauma Spectrum: Hidden Wounds and Human Resiliency, by Robert Scaer.

The depression, PTSD, and other "mental" symptoms in my case have, in part, a definite physiological root. Later abuse that I experienced just seemed to cement the earlier patterns.

I can't see the body and the mind as entirely separate -- everything in us is connected with everything else. Our culture is still struggling to arise from centuries of mistaken beliefs about illness that is primarily of the mind. Demonic possession ... fallen moral character ... witchcraft ... laziness ... you name it, the label's been slapped on. Unfortunately, many people still choose to remain ignorant, and that's where the nasty judgments come in. I've been called every name in the book, from lazy to crazy, stupid, filthy, etc. ... by people who didn't know any better, and didn't want to know any better.

It's been pointed out in many ways that every thought and emotion has a biochemical equivalent (Candace Pert writes about this in her book, Molecules of Emotion). Likewise, every physical experience or symptom is marked on the brain and interpreted by the mind. Illness that people think of as only "mental" has its physical corelations.

The thing that breaks my heart is the ignorance and cruelty that other people can heap upon those with psychological disorders. There are no easy answers or simple responses for the disorders we experience. Every symptom ultimately makes sense, I think...it may take a long, long time to make the sense...but it is there.

Compassion is so important. Basic awareness, decency, and respect, regardless of a person's presenting symptoms. There's a beating heart and a wounded soul beneath all the crap, whatever it is. I make it part of my own healing to help others to understand the realities of depression, PTSD, etc. Our society/culture only aggravates these illnesses with its frenzied expectations, violence, noise, etc.

Thanks again for starting this thread -- I appreciate the dialogue; it's very thought-provoking. :smile:

Roo

Lucky Laser

06-04-2008, 06:25 AM

I tend to think that they help some and don't help others; it depends on the person. I am one for the "not helped" category. I've tried some different SSRI's and each one hurt more than it helped. Yet I know some people who do very well with them.

becvan

06-04-2008, 07:38 AM

Effectiveness:
A few months ago, a meta-analysis of nearly 50 studies on SSRI's was completed. The results show that SSRI's are no more effective than a sugar pill in all but the most severly depressed patients. This suggests that benefits from SSRI's are nothing more than a placebo affectin the majority of patients. It has been suggested that the drug's amphetamine affects profile is what helps the severe cases.
http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045

I would like to point out something. This study is only within a six week time frame. It has it's limitations. The efficacy of long term use has never been studied. This is not a be all, end all study of knowledge. On top of that.. it is only one study. Suggestions are just that suggestions, not proof by any stretch of the term.

I personally don't like SSRI's. However the plain and simple fact is that some people do need them and do very well on them. It is.. as with all things, very individual.

bec

2quilt

06-04-2008, 08:25 AM

The antidepressant I am taking is a new drug, Cymbalta, and it works on Norepinefrin as well as something else i can't remember right now. It was first created for Diabetics with neuropathy pain, then they learned that it helped the diabetics' depression. Bingo, (clapping hands) the newest antidepressant, which also works to kill pain. i am more normal now than I have ever been in my life, and that is saying a hell of alot.

Older antidepressants never worked for me at all.
Trazadone, Paxil, Elevil = Amytriptiline, Serzone, Nefazadone, Welbutrin...

anthony

06-04-2008, 08:38 AM

I have to add here though; Upstream your outline of SSRI's only included anti-depressants, where as an SSRI covers several functional categories, not just depression. SSRI's are classified for anxiety only also.... which some of these do work. I totally agree with you that the SSRI's for depression have something like a 90% plus failure rate or worse, they actually increase the thoughts of suicidal ideation. What is a doctors next move for this? Usually they decide that anti-physcotics are then required and try labelling a person with some physcotic disorder also.

People are lazy, lets face it. There are a good majority of people on this very forum who are taking pills in the belief that they will solve all their problems over having to actually face their fears, work through their trauma and then do some exposure therapy to relearn how to become social and practicable again. People think they can achieve all this with a medication.... so doctors will take their money and cater this need.

Its not only a good proportion of doctors who are idiots, money hungry twits, but also the sufferers who are lazy and ignorant of the true facts required to actually get better from something like PTSD. People would rather believe they can pop a pill than get out of bed at the same time every day (routine), walk or exercise daily for a minimum of one hour (physical activity) and then find a hobby or interest to occupy their mind during the majority of the day (activity). Instead they believe they can sit on the lounge and watch TV all day, pop a pill, do nothing and it will all be good. Then... they go back to the doctor telling them how they are getting worse, when likely the doctor told them to get off their arse and get out of the house, but people once again find it easier to lie to the doctor and tell them nonsense, make the doctor look like an idiot, and use these lies (denial) as an excuse for their behaviour.

Medication has a purpose, it is limited from all my knowledge reading through journals about them, piecing together all the for and againsts matters to determine a commonsense approach.... it is often abused as a money making technique by physicians or ignored in other areas by the patient taking them. A pill will not fix everything, EVER.

Great topic Upstream.... maybe some may just learn to wakeup to themselves and get their finger out of their backside and into action.... because a pill isn't going to fix it for you.

linasmom

06-04-2008, 09:15 AM

People would rather believe they can pop a pill than get out of bed at the same time every day (routine), walk or exercise daily for a minimum of one hour (physical activity) and then find a hobby or interest to occupy their mind during the majority of the day (activity). Instead they believe they can sit on the lounge and watch TV all day, pop a pill, do nothing and it will all be good. Then... they go back to the doctor telling them how they are getting worse, when likely the doctor told them to get off their arse and get out of the house, but people once again find it easier to lie to the doctor and tell them nonsense, make the doctor look like an idiot, and use these lies (denial) as an excuse for their behaviour.

Wow, but don't you think it would be easier to do the things you just listed instead of suffering through side-effects? And if yes, then why are people not doing it? You make it sound so easy, Anthony.

Best,
Rachel

anthony

06-04-2008, 09:21 AM

I may make it sound easy, but I never express that here or face to face. In fact I express quite the opposite to people, in that it will be harder than living the trauma in the first place... but lets be honest here, it is short term pain for long term gain. That is a fact.

linasmom

06-04-2008, 09:29 AM

I know, so therein lies the conundrum.

People in the past, prior to anti-depressants, didn't stick their heads in an oven or hang themselves in a closet because they refused to take a walk once a day and have a routine.

kers

06-04-2008, 10:43 AM

I think SSRIs are worth a try if someone is severely symptomatic enough with depression and anxiety. It's impossible to know if they will work for you without trying them.

I never would have been able to do the work of therapy without mine. Then, when I tried to go taper off it, my hyperarousal and depression skyrocketed. To me this does not indicate that the drug has been bad for me, just that I depend on its effects to feel more even-keeled. My psychiatrist has said that long-term trauma may change the brain chemistry such that I will take this drug long-term. I'm okay with that, because combined with the work I've done in therapy, I might eventually get a normal life.

anthony

06-04-2008, 07:56 PM

I have always had the following view on medication, which is said time and time again here. Medication has its time and place. It is over prescribed due to the kickbacks endorsed to physicians... that is a fact. The more they prescribe the more money they get, and as doctors, it is a business which exists to make money, nothing more, nothing less. The doctor you find that is often poor, is the one often you will find the most level headed and honest. Just look in the driveway if they have a big expensive car, house and lifestyle, maybe not the best choice for your best interest. They are more concerned at making money than making patients better.

Medication during uncontrolled PTSD I could only say is a must. You should be medicated during that time, until the time in which you learn what you must do in order to heal trauma and manage PTSD to get back into life.

Once you finish trauma therapy you should begin tapering medications to lower levels. If on many, you should reduce to just one, etc. If on anti-depressants, you should be reducing them to nothing and replacing them with activity instead.

As you learn and expose yourself to life again, you taper medication out of your life. Once all gone you will find it hard for a couple of months, have no doubt what so ever, life will feel like shit and as though all your work has just been undone. Suddenly though you will find you begin getting control of yourself again, by applying all you have learnt without the use of medication.

You will only get better the more you learn. Now.... there are a small amount of people who will require medication the rest of their life.... and I doubt many of that small amount are here. You will find a lot of people with PTSD will go onto medication off and on during their life, dependant upon how their life is at any time. Family, friends and love one's still die, still get ill, etc.... no doubt medication may be needed for six months during such times, if not a year until you get control of yourself again. You may go for years without it, then something sends you spiralling out of control.

You may want to work, which will by itself require medication just to cope with daily life. Those who work will have symptoms regardless.... whilst you expose yourself to work with PTSD you will have symptoms. Live with it.... fact.

If you opt for a stay at home life, or a job that is nil stress, work by yourself, no deadlines, etc.... you may be able to do it without meds. Maybe!!! Staying at home, you should be able to do it easily.... as you can manage your exposure to daily stressors quite well, much better than someone who is working.

Medication has a purpose and use.... problem is that society and money has put it up for abuse.

Cowgirl

06-04-2008, 11:13 PM

My DH had a disastrous experience on these things. He was "treated" with drugs only, and spiraled into the abyss. It got very, very bad - I won't go into detail. I'm not a fan of them.

I won't go so far as to say they don't help anyone, as a friend is on them for major depression, and she swears they help. Maybe it is the placebo effect, but I doubt her doctor could legally sell her sugar pills and tell her they were the latest wonder drug.

Cowgirl

dlross

07-04-2008, 04:09 AM

I must admit I get a bit churned up over all this discussion of medications. Rather than repeat things I have posted elsewhere I am just going to point anyone interested towards the best book on depression I have ever read.

Against Depression by Peter Kramer

Auburngirl

07-04-2008, 04:52 AM

I just want to add into the fray that not in all systems do doctors derive any financial benefit from prescribing. It's unfair to tar them all with the same brush. Not all health care systems work on a for profit basis.

Where I am the doctor gets a flat fee from the government per service (ie psychotherapy). And the drug I was prescribed (which is just for occasional use and is not an SSRI) is a generic that cost 5 dollars for 15 pills.

Right now I'm mainly be treated with psychotherapy. But I can see the usefulness of drugs in getting some people to the point where psychotherapy could help (ie if you are too anxious to handle psychotherapy you might need some medication to be able to get there and then start dealing with things).

kers

07-04-2008, 06:01 AM

You will find a lot of people with PTSD will go onto medication off and on during their life, dependant upon how their life is at any time.

Many people find that after they have gone off a particular SSRI, when they go on it again, its effectiveness is different. However, some people also find that long-term SSRI treatment becomes less effective over time. It varies between people.

I think that unless one is a psychiatric doctor, it is impossible to say whether drug treatment is appropriate. Frankly Anthony, I know that you mean well, but you are advocating against medication from a layman's perspective. Only a PTSD sufferer's doctors can help them make medical decisions.

anthony

07-04-2008, 09:34 AM

Frankly Anthony, I know that you mean well, but you are advocating against medication from a layman's perspective. Only a PTSD sufferer's doctors can help them make medical decisions.
Actually Kers, far from it actually. I am not pro-medication or pro-alternative medication. I state here over and over, I sit on the fence and look at all the facts to make a more diverse observation. I DO NOT give medication specific advice because it cannot be done online, it could only ever be done face to face, and it can never be done by theory, knowledge or experience. It can only be gauged by the sufferer themselves on a trial and error basis.

I think your reading something that doesn't exist though kers, as I am not either. What physicians tell you is not necessarily true. Just because a doctor has a degree, does that make them right? No. It is proven more and more now that physicians have moved from what we knew as conventional treatment to now a business model. Factors from society have pushed that. You often don't see a rich naturopath to the extent as a doctor. Why? Because one is more interested in the patients health, the other is more interested in the bottom line figure. Pick which one?

Neither by themselves are right. You get people who are all medication or all naturopath, not even willing to entertain a combination of both to provide a better result. Not wise IMO. Each person must try a myriad of treatments and combinations in order to find what best suits them. My point has always been this, nothing more, nothing less.

The majority of doctors are money based, not all, majority. You can find the right one. Just read the experience of so many here who listened and went looking.... they soon found for themselves they are not created equal when it comes to dealing with PTSD. You need trauma specialists, not just a physician or therapist who wants to shove pills down your throat. You want one who evaluates all factors and gives a wide range of treatment variations in order to best help the patient.

How many people here report how they go to their doctor and are kicked out the door in 10 minutes? The majority.... why? Because the majority are money based business models now, not physicians who are actively interested in helping their patients get better, but instead keep repeat customers coming back to continue spending money. Very few treat properly now. These are facts, not fiction.

upstream

07-04-2008, 09:41 AM

There is concrete and continually mounting evidence that physical bonding, holding, mirroring, gazing, etc. (or lack thereof) will have a major impact on the infant's developing brain and immune/endocrine systems. I've recently studied two excellent books that you might want to look into: A General Theory of Love, by Lewis Thomas MD et. al, and The Trauma Spectrum: Hidden Wounds and Human Resiliency, by Robert Scaer.

The depression, PTSD, and other "mental" symptoms in my case have, in part, a definite physiological root. Later abuse that I experienced just seemed to cement the earlier patterns.

I can't see the body and the mind as entirely separate -- everything in us is connected with everything else. Our culture is still struggling to arise from centuries of mistaken beliefs about illness that is primarily of the mind. Demonic possession ... fallen moral character ... witchcraft ... laziness ... you name it, the label's been slapped on. Unfortunately, many people still choose to remain ignorant, and that's where the nasty judgments come in. I've been called every name in the book, from lazy to crazy, stupid, filthy, etc. ... by people who didn't know any better, and didn't want to know any better.

It's been pointed out in many ways that every thought and emotion has a biochemical equivalent (Candace Pert writes about this in her book, Molecules of Emotion). Likewise, every physical experience or symptom is marked on the brain and interpreted by the mind. Illness that people think of as only "mental" has its physical corelations.

Roo, I agree with almost all of this, but I believe where you and I differ is in ideas of permanence and plasticity. I have seen recent research showing that people are much more plastic and malleable that previously thought. Also, psychoanalyst and therapist Marie-France Hirigoyen has observed that many survivors of abuse, while having been altered from the experience, have the ability to evolve and grow. Her book is called "Stalking the Soul."

Another way to put it, we have the ability to work through many emotional issues through therapy, reflection, new experiences, and change of environment. We do not have similar abilities to work through cancer, that requires medical technology.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll look into them.

upstream

07-04-2008, 10:08 AM

I have to add here though; Upstream your outline of SSRI's only included anti-depressants, where as an SSRI covers several functional categories, not just depression. SSRI's are classified for anxiety only also.... which some of these do work.

Anthony, I have heard of Paxil being prescribed for social anxiety, but do not have much information other than that. Thanks for raising this point, I'll have to look into it.

upstream

07-04-2008, 10:11 AM

I'm at the point where I truly believe that the SSRI's are causing my current major depressive episode. I have not had a depressive episode like this in 2 and a half years which just so happened to be the last time I was on an SSRI. :mad:

Rachel, again I'm biased here, but with medication I believe it is better to listen to your gut than your doctor.

I hope everything works out.

Roo

07-04-2008, 12:13 PM

Roo, I agree with almost all of this, but I believe where you and I differ is in ideas of permanence and plasticity. I have seen recent research showing that people are much more plastic and malleable that previously thought. Also, psychoanalyst and therapist Marie-France Hirigoyen has observed that many survivors of abuse, while having been altered from the experience, have the ability to evolve and grow. Her book is called "Stalking the Soul."

Upstream...funny you should mention this, 'cause I've been starting to read about brain plasticity recently (if that's what you are referring to here). I will definitely look into Stalking the Soul.

I'm at a point now, after 27 years of more or less consciously working with my history, of trying to discern what can (still) be changed, and what I need to accept and live with as gently and mindfully as possible. I know I've come a long way...and I've come to understand that some wounds never heal completely. (I hope I'm mistaken about this...)

Another thought about SSRIs ... I'm in perimenopause and I can't help but wonder what strangeness might occur after being on Paxil for 11.5 years.:eek: If anyone has insight into this, please share and thanks...

anthony

07-04-2008, 05:19 PM

Cowgirl

08-04-2008, 12:36 AM

Another thought about SSRIs ... I'm in perimenopause and I can't help but wonder what strangeness might occur after being on Paxil for 11.5 years.:eek: If anyone has insight into this, please share and thanks...

All I know of Paxil is from a friend who was on it. She said it was very difficult to wean herself off of it as compared to the other SSRIs she had been on. From what she told me about the experience, you should probably be closely monitored during the time you are weaning away from it. She thought it was the worst transition she's ever been through, and she actually used the words "addiction" and "withdrawal" to describe the process.

I know that is hearsay, so take it for what it is worth.

Hugs,

Cowgirl

Cecilia

08-04-2008, 02:03 AM

Roo:

I am surprised a doctor kept you on the same medication for so long! I have been on Zoloft, Paxil and Effexor. I was on Paxil for 2 years. It was a great help for anxiety. Then my doctor took me off. Coming off of it was hell. It made me very sick. The first few weeks were really bad; I could not drive to work without getting sick at least twice on the way then I was sick the rest of the day; I had really bad shakes, sweat poured off me and I couldn't keep anything down.

Hopefully, you will not have the same reaction.

upstream

08-04-2008, 02:42 AM

Upstream...funny you should mention this, 'cause I've been starting to read about brain plasticity recently (if that's what you are referring to here).

Yes...

http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/b02/en/common/item_detail.jhtml;jsessionid=3BYN2VU0QG1NCAKRGWCB5 VQBKE0YOISW?referral=7855&id=R0711B&_requestid=75855

Recent neuroscientific research shows that the health of your brain isn't, as experts once thought, just the product of childhood experiences and genetics; it reflects your adult choices and experiences as well. Professors Gilkey and Kilts of Emory University's medical and business schools explain how you can strengthen your brain's anatomy, neural networks, and cognitive abilities, and prevent functions such as memory from deteriorating as you age.
...
In other words, you can alter the physical makeup of your brain by learning new skills. The more cognitively fit you are, the better equipped you are to make decisions, solve problems, and deal with stress and change.

Also this one is good:
http://www.sharpbrains.com/blog/2007/10/30/cognitive-fitness-10-debunked-myths/

2quilt

08-04-2008, 05:07 AM

What physicians tell you is not necessarily true. Just because a doctor has a degree, does that make them right? No.

Somebody had to graduate at the bottom of the class. That doctor still holds a degree in medicine, but I sure would not want that person for my doctor.

upstream

08-04-2008, 08:21 AM

I knew some brilliant and dedicated classmates in Engineering who struggled to get into med school... I imagine even the people at the bottom of those classes are smart and dedicated.

I think we're being too hard on the doctors... Gwen Olsen has a video where she talks about how she was trained to manipulate doctors into prescribing more drugs...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW8LNU2hFE

This included tactics like minimizing harmful side effects to doctors, presenting statistics in a slanted way, accusing anyone that speaks out against psychiatric drugs as being a Scientologist, psychological profiling of doctors to best know how to convince them to prescribe your drugs, etc.

Scary stuff...

anthony

08-04-2008, 08:34 AM

Absolutely upstream... there are many facets to this issue.... many problems that exist. Some are doctors stepping outside there professional bounds of knowledge and attempting to know everything so they don't look silly to their patient, instead of just saying, "I don't know but will get back to you." Some is pharmacology releasing false and misleading facts about a medication. Some is the makers hiding aspects that they are aware and just not releasing those facts period. There are many attributes, and by far when I say that all doctors are not created equal.... I mean that, though it I never intend for it to be taken exclusively.... though with commonsense applied.

Physicians work typically on their limited experience scope. I say limited because genetics are at play here. Like anyone, a doctor is human, and they find something they like and that is all they prescribe as a first line of defence. Many issues, many factors.... many valid points and commonsense must be applied.

Auburngirl

08-04-2008, 12:39 PM

Doctors can absolutely be wrong, but I've found my bad experiences with doctors have been absolutely overwhelmed by my positive ones. And at this point I've dealt with medical systems in four countries. I only encountered the prescription and being rushed out the door scenario in the UK.

There are bad eggs, and it is worth the time to find one you feel comfortable with, who listens to you and isn't threatened by being asked questions. I found that was critical for me, I have a lot of questions, it's my body and I want to know what is going on.

When I called the clinic to start dealing with PTSD (again) the receptionist booked a longer appointment, the doctor was really considerate and gave me a lot of options - including seeing a male or female psychiatrist, estimated wait times, resources in the meantime (including herself). She actually did say she could just prescribe me drugs but didn't think that would get at the root of things, and that I was welcome to come back and receive counsellign from her - but she thought it would be best to see an expert. And when I came back for something else she checked up on how I was doing.

At a time when I was really a wreck, and embarassed and really confused about what was happening to me, she was a godsent. In the past decade there has been a (much needed) shift towards emphasising people skills in medical school and, in my experience, it is paying off. Interestingly here there is a growing preference for female doctors and, as a result, it is harder to get a female doctor.

Roo

17-04-2008, 04:57 AM

Wow Roo.... that is a long time to be on a medication. Unless a medication specialist exists here, I would maybe seek one out in your community and see what they have to say. You can always find an expert in every area of medicine and mental health, you just have to look a little usually. I think someone who specialises in medication could give you a pretty good scope and idea of your question though. Would love to hear your feedback though if you do seek such specialist out about your specific request.

Thanks, Anthony, for your thought...lately I seem to be coming across a lot of information regarding long-term use and effiacy of SSRIs. I will look more into this and discuss with my MD...it's been on my mind for a while. :think: