What Should Be Considered "Self-Destructive"?

[nic]

I had a doctor's appointment today with my gyno. in order to discuss some stuff. I told her that I went off the pill, and I want to have a baby in the near future, even if that means being a single mom. (I have a stable job, support from friends and family, and I really don't care so much about being in a relationship or being married...I just want to have a family.) Anyway, I'm in my late 20s, and I don't think this is such an abnormal desire.

Well, my doctor told me that, in her opinion, this is just another example of my self-destructive behavior. Needless to say, I was a bit hurt by that. First off, I feel like if it weren't for the PTSD, (if I was just a "normal" patient), she wouldn't think that someone wanting to have a child, even if they are singe, would be a self-destructive behavior. Secondly, I felt like I was given an unfair label. I know that in the past I haven't always made the best choices, but who has? I don't drink; I don't smoke; I don't do drugs; I don't cut myself. I think that alone suggests that I'm pretty good at dealing with all the crap that goes along with the trauma and PTSD.

Yes, I dissociate during sex. Yes, I haven't (in the past) always had the safest sexual practices. But that is really an isolated issue; I don't think that having a baby should fall into the category of being self-destructive, especially since I have thought it through...A LOT.

Thoughts???

[spiritofnow]

Nic,

I guess the concern comes from the fact that you are willingly wanting to have a child whilst not being in a stable relationsip or perhaps even more importantly having learned to be able to have one.

I understand your desire and of course you are just as worthy as any other woman who wants a family.

I guess, you should remember this......I am a single parent and it breaks my heart that even though my son knows that I truly wanted him, he grieves over not having a present father. He desperately wants to connect with this side of him.

Having a family as you put it, would also be about providing one for your child - providing the best possible environment. And, yes women do and can do it on their own. It is not easy!

I wish I had a partner so that I could share my responsibilties, someone to support me at all times ! Especially, when I am having to be the bad cop and dish out consequences, the list is endless.

Perhaps , having a child would seem like a good distraction from your life? Oh boy, it so is not. In actual fact it magnifies all those insecurites and issues you already have. You have to prepare your child for the world in the most balanced way that you can. This is even harder to achieve while you are working on yourself.

I am not saying no to your idea! I am not saying that you would not make a good mother, but perhaps you should work on you first and then you will have that family you so desire.

Just my thoughts!

Spirit x

[becvan]

So, let me recap what I know really quick here. In the pregnancy and ptsd thread you said that you have issues with the gyno and issues with general touch. You are single. Sounds like your planing on being a single mom. You have yet to heal your trauma as your still in the process of healing. That about right?

My thoughts are your only thinking of yourself. A child deserves two parents. On top of deserving that, it's also been proven over and over that a child with two involved parents does much better than one. You want to start off with your child being at a disadvantage. How unfair is that? Single parenting is NOT easy.

Secondly, you have issues with touch and the gyno. So all the necessary exams would be out then? So taking care of your child s health while pregnant just fell into second place didn't it? Also children need love and touch and lot's of it. Ask any of us with children just how rough that can be... Ask our children how it feels to have a parent with touch issues. Watch their self-esteem go down the drain.

Thirdly, your still healing. So on top of the single parent disadvantage, you want to toss a child in with not-yet managed PTSD. I am a single mom with PTSD and let me tell you I didn't do my children any favors. They have had a hard life because of me. Honestly, If I knew back then what I know now, I would not have brought my children into this mess.

Under all these circumstances, I agree with your doc. Your not only being self-destructive but selfish in not thinking about what this future child really needs. Sorry to be so blunt, but I think you need to hear this because you keep asking us.

You have plenty of time to have children. I think your obsessing over this. Get yourself on track and meet and fall in love with a nice man first.

Also, why did you go off the pill? Are you going to tell the man you sleep with that your aren't on the pill because you want to get pregnant? Anything less is unfair, wrong and exceptionally... well selfish on top of removing a man's choice. And they do have a right to this choice.

bec

[spiritofnow]

Just to add to becvans impressive list; if you have come off of the pill in order to conceive would this be within a stable relationship? If not then how would you know about their sexual history and how safe it is to be with them unprotected - that is destructive behaviour, eh?
How about this nic, imagine you are a mother, and imagine you are the child of you. What would you say to that child that you loved so dearly if they proposed what you are proposing to do - be honset with yourself lovely! :-)
Spirit x

[spiritofnow]

I hope you don't feel under attack nic? You are not you know? Thay are words of compassion, wisdom and they are perhaps hard to hear?

Spirit x

[2quilt]

Can you afford the monetary expense of a child for the next 18 years? Who will take care of the child when you are not able to do so because of illness, PTSD days, long working hours or when you want to be alone? If you love children, volunteer at a homeless shelter or daycare or a public school so that you can see how well you discipline, handle stress, deal with other people's kids. That will also give you a chance to talk to other single moms about their quality of life.

This is a very big decision. You are making a decision for another person (your kid) so think carefully. You have another 12-15 years to have a baby. Take time to think about all this, and use protection.

[Seeking_Nirvana]

I'm going to be the devil's advocate here. My daughter has helped me heal in some of my issues. I see how innocent she is and it gave me a lot of hope.

I didn't start my healing until she was two. One day I looked at her and thought she deserves to have two healthy parents (instead of one). There was something about her that made me what to be a better person.

However, I do feel it was selfish of me to get pregnant without her father wanting the same thing. He is happy now, but it could have went the wrong way so making sure you have a father for the child is important.

Tammy

[nic]

While I thank you all for the responses, my question wasn't really about what decision I should make. I do know what is involved in taking care of children; not only am I a high school teacher, but I have also been working in a daycare center all my life. I have seen many families come through the door, and I must say, some of the best, most loving homes were NOT "typical" families. I have no doubt that I can provide a stable, healthy home for a child. (And I think that the fact that my friends with children, my primary care doc as well as psychiatrists past and present are highly supportive of the idea says a lot, especially since they know me best.)

What I was trying to get at in the thread, and perhaps I did not make this clear enough, is why should having a baby be considered self-destructive. What bothered me about this doctor's comment is the fact that I don't think she would think the same way if it weren't for the PTSD. In other words, I feel like the PTSD labels me. Yes, I have issues, but so does everyone else. I don't want the trauma to define me, and just because I have PTSD does not mean that I act according to some pre-determined list of symptoms. This doctor, (the gyn.), only sees me when I am at my worst, as exams are the thing that trigger me most. She is failing to take into account the fact that (even my other doctors have told her) I am a highly functioning person, even with the PTSD.

I think this also goes back to whether lifestyles that seem different should be considered negative. Just because the doctor, (or you all), wouldn't choose this for yourself, does that mean it should be called self-destructive? Let me give an analogy. There are many people, including doctors, who think that being gay/lesbian is wrong, unnatural, and even self-destructive. Add a baby into the situation, and even if these are the best parents in the world, there will still be many people who think this way. Just because it isn't the "norm," and may not be a lifestyle others would want, should this be considered self-destructive? I, for one, don't think so.

Going back to my original list of self-destructive behaviors that I do NOT do, these are obviously harmful things. (drinking, drugs, etc.) I guess I just don't think that having a baby (if a person does knows that she is emotionally and financially prepared to do so) should be put on that same list.

[linasmom]

Nic,

Do you know exactly what she was referring to when she said "self destructive". Was it because you have PTSD or was it because she knows that you have done some self-destructive things in the past?

I had a child without being with my daughter's father (I didn't want him in my life anymore). Once I had her, a lot of my "self destructive" behaviors ended. Though if it weren't for my dad and now my husband, I don't know if I would have been able to take care of my daughter, but I think you and I suffer from different PTSD symptoms. I have rage and am hypervigilant, my moods are unpredictable, and I don't sleep well. Combine that with the occasional depressive episode and I can be a mess at times and nonfunctional, which is when my husband and dad step in. I love my daughter more than anything in the world, but I've come to terms with the fact that I'm not a very maternal person and I'm not having anymore children.

Just because you have PTSD does not mean that you shouldn't have a child on your own. There are tons of single women who do it. I do, however, hope that you plan on going through therapy this summer (I remember a separate thread about this). Think about all of the procedures and many visits to the doctor that you will have to endure - and there are tons of them.

It seems that you thrive best when you are around kids and maybe having a child of your own will be a positive thing for you. Maybe it wouldn't be for some other woman with PTSD, but I don't think we should all be lumped into one category. We are still individuals.

Best,
Rachel

[Nicolette]

Let me play the devil's advocate and ask.... what about the "sperm donor"? While you might be ok with being a single mum does this donor want to be a father? What I mean by that is how would you like someone turning up on your doorstep in 18 years time saying "Hey, I'm your child". Or, on the other hand, how would you handle having a child who has some inherited condition from your "sperm donors" side of the family and the child needs their blood for a transfusion or something???? Do you really know what you are messing with?:think:

Nic, I think you are only considering your wants and desires. While you can do whatever you want with your life please be careful messing with other people's. A man does have a responsibility in having sex but trapping someone is a little cruel if you ask me.

[sisu]

I don't think that the choice to have a baby is self-destructive. I don't think that it was your gyno's place to decide your motivation for your decision. It is her job to make sure you have a healthy pregnancy and birth ~ if you do get pregnant.

I am now a single mom and I do fine, although I had both my daughters when I was married. Before I had my kids I was a selfish person. Once you have kids you can no longer be selfish. These little newborn babies need you to survive. They can do nothing on their own and you must teach them everything. Mine are now 9 & 10 and the teaching continues... I am sure as a teacher you know all of this.

I think in todays society there is not a specific definition of a "normal" family. Most families do not have a mom and dad who have never been divorced. Our normal in our family is the fact that we all love and support each other.

Good luck on your decision. Sisu :thumbs-up

[Nicolette]

IMHO, there is a big difference in becoming a single mom (where both parents initially consented to having a child) to conspiring to have a child without the man's knowledge or approval.

[linasmom]

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't get from the post that Nic was planning on being deceptive about it.

[Nicolette]

I told her that I went off the pill, and I want to have a baby in the near future, even if that means being a single mom. (I have a stable job, support from friends and family, and I really don't care so much about being in a relationship or being married...I just want to have a family.)

Perhaps I misinterpreted this Rachel? To me it sounded like Nic was suggesting having a child without the potential father knowing.

[Jet]

Wow...I think you all must have read a different thread than I did because I did not see anything asking whether Nic should have a baby and raise it as a single mother or any statement saying she was planning on tricking some sucker into fathering a child without his consent.

What I read was a post asking about the verbal treatment she recieved from her doctor and whether anyone else thought it was inapropriate.

Now I do not know Nic and I can't say whether or not she is ready to raise a child. As has been stated, raising a baby/child is a hard thing. Only Nic (hopefully along with her doctors who know her well) can make the decision about whether or not it is the right thing at the right time for her.

The doctor was out of line. Not because she had concerns (after all she does only see her at her worst) but because of the way she treated her. It would have not been difficult for her to voice her concerns in a far nicer way...such as explaining the various medical procedures involved and helping her make the decision as to whether or not she could handle them...But instead of helping her make an informed decision she chose to demean her and her desire to have a child.

I would also like to point out a couple of other things.... (1) - it can take quite a while for the cycle of someone who has been on the pill to regualte itself so that they are able to concieve. I may be wrong about dates (as I have not looked into this in several years) but the last I knew it could take up to two years...they always tell you that if you are thinking about having a baby in the near future to get off the pill because of this. (2) - Becoming a single mother by choice does not necessarily involve tricking some guy into becoming a father...that's what sperm banks are for (and they are not really all that pricey).

[linasmom]

:clap: yay, Jet! You wrote the response I tried to write but I didn't even come close.

[spiritofnow]

I guess we all got caught up in the moral concern of this thread. I do believe that I highlighted some issues that could be CONSTRUED as self-destructive behaviour.

I guess as I am a single parent with PTSD and a difficult past that I am trying to resolve, this issue hit/pressed my button(s).

As I always point out life IS about 'individual differences' so what is true for someone with a similar background may not be for another person in similar circumstances.

I still have my own issues concerning nic's proposal - there are just so many dynamics here at play:

My history has affected my realtionship with my child - in different ways. One of those has been while he has started to become an adolscent and physically change from a child into a young man. His physical attributes, his gender and his sexual growth could of been a trigger if I was not where I am in my healing process.

When my PTSd symptoms have been at there worst I have not performed as the kind of mother I would like to be! If you are not too far along in the healing process- this has the potential to just become more guilt and more negative inward thinkning concerning your actions. Not conducive to healing!

My child is learning through example as we all do, modelling. Some of my examples are not the way I want him to see life. My inability to have a stable realtionship. Or perhaps more importantly to nurture one that is! I do not want him to believe that love can be so unstable. I have to explain to him why it has been this way for me up until now, so that he is not jaded by that!

Single parent is a whole other ball game........

Of course there are many pluses to being a parent, and a lot of beautiful ones.

I guess a professional person should not come across as judgemental, but perhaps go through the pros and cons of any choice.

Nonetheless, irrespective of labels PTSD is a disorder that has many dynamics that can make it difficult for a person to function in a reasonable and healthy manner. That does not mean that you should be labelled as self-destructive because you choose something for yourself. It means that you should at least be as realsitc and practical as you can. I am not entering into a relationship because I am healing myself. I know for a fact that right now I could not offer the 'best of me'. That does not negate the fact that I would love to be in a relationship. I understand I am not ready, and if someone suggested to me that perhaps if I was to entertain that thought at the moment becuase of my issues with my PTSd symptoms, that I was not being very practical - I would stare them in the face and say, 'you know what you are probably right', that is because I know that this is the right choice for me.


This is all life is really, choices. We have to live with them!



Life eh!

Spirit x

[becvan]

How single parenting got to be a "lifestyle" choice is beyond me. Single parenting is not only hard but it puts the child at a disadvantage. This is proven. They have issues from education to social settings whether your income is 20,00 a year or 100,00 a year. If you don't believe me, then look it up! There are tons of studies done on this.

Also, PTSD as a label is just bull. PTSD is our reality. It affects our every action, word and thought. It has to be considered no matter what we do. Having children is no different, in fact, it's all the more important to be considered. I'm not saying don't have children because you have PTSD. I'm saying wait until your further in the healing process where you are in management. Anything less would be irresponsible.

Plain and simply where is the thought on how this is going to adversely affect the child? This "future" child should be the utmost in every one's minds, yet it's all about the mother's desires?

Really it takes a courageous person to say, I'm going to wait to have my child so that I am giving him/her every possible chance to have a great opportunity at life and to give myself the best possible chances of being a great mother. It also takes a selfless person, the foundation of motherhood.

Also I do not see how the doctor giving their opinion on this is crossing the line. Doctors are NOT required to spin things nicely so we feel good about ourselves. Nor are they required to just tell us what we want to hear. It is their job to protect life. Even future lives that have yet to be born. Also it sounds like it doesn't matter how anyone says anything, if it's not what is wanted to be heard it's ignored, considering this is the second thread on this topic.

No matter what spin is put on this, I consider this to be a bad decision at this time. With uncontrolled PTSD, issues with basic medical exams that are vital to the child's and mother's well being, and the complete lack of consideration for how single parenting adversely effects a child makes it bad timing. Clear those issues up, and reconsider.

I'm done with this subject.

bec

[linasmom]

How single parenting got to be a "lifestyle" choice is beyond me. Single parenting is not only hard but it puts the child at a disadvantage. This is proven.
bec

I guess it's all in your perception of what a "single parent" means. I was a "single parent" for years, by my own choice, however, I had a family support system around to help. Children become "disadvantaged" because there is a lack of support and love in the home NOT because there isn't a typical father figure in the home. I would love to see these studies and find out if any further investigations were performed on those who became "disadvantaged" - ie: what was their home life like? Loving? Supportive?

Nothing is proven. It's only proven for the time being until someone else comes up with a more detailed study and then that becomes proven. And so on and so forth. The theory that children are disadvantaged if being raised by a single parent is so black and white it's almost frightening.


Quote by Bec: PTSD is our reality.

Sorry, but no, it's my reality. It's Nic's reality. It's your reality. We do not all share the same reality. Just because we all suffer from PTSD does not mean that we live the same, think the same and act the same. We may have commonalities, but it is not a shared reality.

Quote by Bec: It is their job to protect life. Even future lives that have yet to be born

That's a bit fundamental, don't you think? Wow, I mean, my jaw almost dropped by that statement. It is not the job of an OBGYN to interview every one of her patients' private lives to find out if SHE morally approves. Sorry, this is not the Church of OBGYN.

What makes it worse, is that she doesn't interview each one of her patients, yet she felt the need to offer an opinion up to Nic in a very rude manner. Glad she's not my OBGYN because I would have told her a word or two.

[spiritofnow]

I think perhaps this all getting rather over heated.
It is inevitable that we will all bring our own value systems into this thread. However, I think that we should stand back a little from them and accept that there ARE other alternatives to those that we prescribe too!

C'mon girls we are all on the same side. Here is a good metaphor; I have a prism in my hand and I ask you all to look through it! You are all looking through the exact same prism, but your perspective as you look through it and beyond will be unique to each others', and you know what? That is Okay! It may not feel the same as your percpetion, but it will be just as colourful and beautiful.

We have lost the essence to this thread..........

Spirit x

[linasmom]

Spirit,

I do love your attempts at bringing everyone together, it's admirable. I've got to be honest with you though - I don't think that we are all on the same side, here.

I'm not sure what the essence of this thread was and why now we have lost it, maybe you could elaborate. Nic was inquiring about her OBGYN's statements and yes, the thread has forked off into subcategories but I think, especially in my last post, I pointed out why I felt her OBGYN went beyond her call of duty.

Best,
Rachel

[nic]

Hmm...I've been away on vacation for a few days, so I just got around to reading these. A couple of comments...

1. There are many ways in which to collect the, um, "materials" so to speak, that are needed to have a child. I went off the pill to regulate my cycle and to prepare my body so that when I do decide to get pregnant, my body will be ready. (I had a friend get pregnant while she was on the pill, and there can be some issues with this.) I am an honest person. I would never "trap" a guy; my current partner knows that I am not on the pill.

2. Thank you to those who recognize that this post was about a comment made, NOT about my decision whether or not to have children.

3. Also, thank you to those who recognize that we all have unique lives/experiences. PTSD affects us all, but some of us work/function differently under various conditions.

4. As far as "reading many posts on this issue," if you read carefully, I HAVE NEVER asked for anyone's opinion as to whether or not I should have a child, and the posts/threads that I have written relating to pregnancy are different. This thread was not so much about pregnancy, but rather about the (what I perceived as) unfair treatment due to the PTSD label. Also, I write about the things that affect me and what's going on in my life regarding the PTSD; right now, this is. If you don't want to read something I post, then don't.

Thank you to all those who have shared their thoughts.

Nic

[Jim]

Well, my doctor told me that, in her opinion, this is just another example of my self-destructive behavior.

Well. Does seem a bit odd to be hearing this from a gynocologist. Psychiatrist, yes but gynocologist, a bit strange. Have you asked her to elaborate? Explain what she means by self-destructive? Believe she owes it to you to explain the statement, especially if you found it upsetting. Your right as a patient to understand what your doc is getting at.

Jim.

[Cecilia]

Nic,

I filed a complaint about an OBGYN after the birth of my first child. I was working 2 part-time jobs and had no health insurance. I could not pay the doctor bills, so I went on Medicaid.

My doctor was on vacation the day I was to be released from the hospital so another OBGYN was to sign me out. About 8 p.m. that evening she came in and lectured me about how I should get off my butt and get to work and get off the system. Then mumbled some people shouldn't be allowed to have kids.

When doctors cross the line and they should be called on it. What your doctor said is wrong. Just because she disagrees with your decision, does not give her the right to label you. Find another doctor.