Worried About Another Member

[pandora]

I was PM.d by someone about another member. I went to her diary and read the last entry...she said she needed a break...OK, no problem she did this before but gave her private email to some of us and we remained in contact that way....tonight the last entry apologized for making us worry but not to PM her, privately contact her. I am very worried right now....What does a person do...she has been really sad and depressed lately???


UUUGGGGHHHH....I hope she is ok but I feel kind of like my hands are tied in a knot. I am feeling a bit sick inside.....

[anthony]

You do not control others Pandora and you regardless what you may perceive as being helpful, sometimes interference can be more stressful when a person just wants space and room to breath for a while by themselves. I would only suggest you do not frustrate yourself with what others do, as basically you are allowing another sufferer, friend or not, to take you down with them. If a person wants a break and doesn't want contact offline either, then all you can do is respect their request. If they go kill themselves, its not your fault, nothing you or another could do would have stopped it. Stop worrying about what you do not control is my suggestion...

[pandora]

Thanx Anthony...i think I have just been through a very stressful time and I am still rying to calm down from my life...the last couple of months, in general. Sorry if I overrreacted...I did leave a message in her diary too...I really hope it is just a break and not a cry for help. i know....I really am a worry wart.

[linasmom]

Pand,

You are not alone, I'm extremely worried about this member, too. I understand what Anthony is saying but I'm also experiencing these concerns despite the fact.

What do we do when we know a person is suicidal? I've never been in this situation before. It's easy to look at things through a black and white telescope, the fact of the matter is that things are not that simple.

Ugh, I'm sick over this.

[Awakening]

Actually I'm very glad this is raised.

I was worried after the last break.

I'm especially worried now.

But it is no burden. Not a burden at all. I just hope that she see's that and when she is ready she talks to us. I really admire her straight up no BS attitude. She's helped me more then she's realised.

[captrn1]

not to butt in as a newbie but I had to take a break for a few weeks since my husband just died.......I was getting support from others not out of the forum......It doesnt have to be a bad thing.....I do understand everyones concern.....But I know I needed to get away and get some things straightened out before being able to come back.

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Hi captrn, sorry about your loss. I think everyone needs a break from time to time. I just signed out of 10 groups that I was a member of, and then I got a lot of e-mails I had to answer telling everyone I'm OK, I just need a break. That in itself took two days.

My mother committed suicide and I can tell you one thing. People are going to do it no matter how much you try to help. They will need a real life person to stop them and I don't see how moral support over the internet can make much difference. So please try not to worry and just say some prayers that God (or) your higher power (if you have one) will take care of it.

When this person snaps out of this (and I hope they do) most likely they will be thankful that you cared and didn't butt in with personal e-mails.

Tammy

[linasmom]

They will need a real life person to stop them and I don't see how moral support over the internet can make much difference.

Tammy

But what if certain people on this forum are able to physically intervene? And, what if we know for certain that this person is suicidal? I'm just very confused. I always thought the responsible thing to do would be to get that person the help they need because they are in a position where they can't do it by themselves due to the deep depression.

Personally, I can't just sit by while someone holds a gun to their head. I understand that people's reaction to these situations will vary. I'm just not one to say "oh well, there's nothing I can do". I think people should at least try. There is nothing malicious in trying to help someone (even though that person may think right now that she doesn't want help - but that's mighty faulty thinking).

Please, no one take that personally, they're simply my own moral standards, and we all have a different code by which we live.

Best,
Rachel

[anthony]

Moral support online is exactly my point also Tammy... it achieves nothing and only creates chaos in many other lives. A member has to take responsibility for their own life... intervention even by a friend does not stop suicide if someone wants to do it... the only thing that can stop it is professional intervention by hospitalisation, and even then, suicide under suicide watch still happens, because if someone wants to die they will.

If someone thinks they want to die, but really they just want help, then they have to stick their hand up to those around them and ask for that help, and that doesn't involve being online... it is face to face people within their lives.

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Rachel, I understand your concern and the decision you make is up to you. But please consider that you can't save everyone. They need to learn to save themselves. If you run around here trying to save everyone you will wear yourself down and burn yourself out.

I was just basing my opinion on the fact of what happened with my mother. She stated she was going to kill herself to 3 people and meant it. She was under suicide watch, and she still did it.

There is a difference...... and this is what I want to point out here. If some one is just momentarily thinking they want to die they will snap out of it, or get help. These are the people that can be helped, but usually only by a professional.

The people who already have made up their mind, are going to do it no matter what you do or say. I understand their pain and I've made two attempts myself in the past. I know the difference between a cry for help and feeling it's time to throw in the towel.

When a person gets in this frame of mind it's almost impossible to change it. I think it's best to tell them you will miss them when they are gone, but if they are just crying for help you can lend them moral support and listen. However, my point being is that worrying over something you have no control over is stress that you shouldn't have to endure.

I know this seems cold on my part and I can assure you I don't want anyone to die. But if I was ready to throw in the towel and someone was trying to stop me, that would just make things worse on them because they would have felt they failed (with tons of guilt) when I succeeded. So please don't set yourself up for that kind of disappointment.

I know from experience that worrying will not change their mind, but will cause you stress that you don't need. I hope you understand what I'm trying to convey here. I think that we should focus our attention on the people who want help, instead of those who don't. I'm not sure who this person is and maybe it's just a cry for help and do whats in your heart.

What I said may seem mean and cruel, but it's just being realistic based on a lot of years of what I experienced with my mother.

Take it easy
Tammy

[Nicolette]

Bravo Tammy! Well said.

[2quilt]

You are very wise, Tammy!

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Thank you both. It's tough to get someone to understand what I'm trying to say if they haven't expereinced someone close to them wanting to commit suicide.

This experience with my mother has made me aware of the fact that no matter what anyone does, if that person is determined to do it and has made up their mind, they will find a way to do it.

I know that a lot of people tried to intervene on my mom's behalf, and they failed. This caused them an enormous amount of guilt and feelings of failure. These people who tried to save her did not deserve to carry around this guilt due to her decision. I seen the after math of these feelings of guilt on many family members, and it was horrible.

I realize my mother was in a lot of pain due to her father molesting her and feel very sorry that she had to go through that. But I also think that her final attempt was to get even with my father. She most certainly got even, and proved her point, but hurt many many people in the process.

For this reason I tend to stay away from those who speak of suicide. I will try to do what I can and offer moral support, help them find a therapist etc. However, if they continue talking about it I tell them I will miss them, and that will be the end of it until they snap out of it.

I don't feel I'm being cruel, I just know I can't control what their final decision will be and I refuse to cater to them constantly, not knowing the outcome, only to be hurt and full of guilt if they choose to carry out their goal. I have enough issues to deal with then to add that to the list.

I still have my own intrusive thoughts to deal with, but I know the difference between wanting help and giving up. Therefore, I will head to the ER if I get to the point of giving up.

I hope everyone understands now so that I'm not seen as some cold witch who doesn't care, because I do.

Tammy

[Grama-Herc]

Tammy

You are a very wise woman. I realize that you, unfortunately, speak from experience. You are however very correct, IMHO!

We here on the forum DO have enough to deal with in the guilt department. We certainly do not need this added stress.

You have stated the situation so well, I am impressed with your writings

[Cecilia]

Tammy,

I totally agree and you are in no way a "cold witch". We are all adults on the board and we make our own decisions. We are responsible for ourselves and for our own healing or for our own demise.

My mother-in-law used to lock herself in the bathroom and claim she was suicidal everytime we visited. So I thought, gee, we're bad for her, so we quit visiting. Unfortunately, that behavior was taught to her children and her son at the age of 35 did commit suicide. He called me the night before and left a message on my recorder. I was busy and did not return the call. However, even if I had, it would not have changed anything. He made his choice as sad as it is.

We can't beat ourselves up over other adults' feelings or reactions. I have been doing that my entire life and I cannot control everything. So I quit my job as Master of the Universe, when I found out that other people are out of my control. I can only choose what I do.

[sisu]

So I quit my job as Master of the Universe, when I found out that other people are out of my control. I can only choose what I do.

Cecilia,
I love that. By the way, what did you do with your Master of the Universe uniform?? :rofl:

Take care,
Sisu

[pandora]

Thanx everyone for all of the great comments.

I just hope she is getting help outside the forum. I know I am an excessive worrier and I can't change the situation......I am praying for her.

[She Cat]

It has taken me a few days to calm down enough to be able to post this without the rage and anger that I have been feeling for the past few days. First I would like an explanation as to why this post was allowed in the public area??? My diary is located in PTSD Members area and not viewable to ALL members, only those allowed into the PTSD only area. I feel this has violated me and once again I now have issues of trust. I always was under the assumption that what ever was posted in the PTSD ONLY was to STAY THERE, I thought this included diaries also.

I also want all to know this... YES I am severly depressed, yes I have suicide ideation, Yes there are times I feel like I am on the precipice, but I have stated over and over in my diary that I am STRUGGLING and STILL FIGHTING to keep my head above water here. I also stated that I was was sorry that people were worried, and I was leaving the forum. I ASKED that people NOT contact me. I unplugged my phone, shut off my computer, had a really good cry and went to bed.

I want to also thank the member(s) of this forum who decided among themselves that I needed help. *sarcasm* They decided to call the police in my area. I was awoken to them pounding on my door, and basically given no choice, but to get into the cruiser and be taken to the hospital. I was then put in the Physc part of the hospital E.D. until I was evaluated. 2 therapist confirmed that YES I am severely depressed, have suicidal ideation, but they felt safe enough to recommend that I be discharged. Only a couple of problems with this.

1) You have to be released to another person. I LIVE ALONE!!!!! I had to wait for a friend to get out of work at 1am, before I could be discharged.

2) I have NO INSURANCE.... So I am now stuck with a hospital bill of probably $600- $1000 or more.

3) I didn't get home till 1:30 in the morning and didn't get to sleep till after 2 am, so work the next day was out of the question also.

I want all to know this... Whatever I decide to do with MY LIFE... IS my decision. NO ONE unless you feel what I feel, think what I think, or go through what I go through has the RIGHT to make a decision for me. I am an adult and have the right to end, or change my life if I feel so fit to do so.

I have received emails for a member here stating that they were going to commit suicide, I told them I would miss them, but in NO WAY would I even try to prevent them for making their own decision. It's a personal decision and IMO NO ONE has the right to tell me what to do.

I am just disgusted by this post and the members that decided to take things in there own hands. Next time try hitting the alarm button instead of making a stupid decision.

I'm out of here.

[linasmom]

The "themselves" includes me, I did not call the police but I did play a part in what happened that night. Wendy, I apologize for crossing any boundaries.

Anthony,

I think I'm going to step down as a moderator here.

I apologize for any trouble that I may have caused anyone, I'm really sorry. I've got to take a break from the forum because I should not be crying every time I come here, like I am now. This whole situation has put me completely over the edge.

Thanks,
rachel

[She Cat]

Rachel,

I am grateful that you stepped up to the plate and apologized for your part in all of this. Right now I am not in the mind set to accept your apology. I would however like to see if the *OTHER* person has the balls or ovaries to step up to the plate and do the same. Actually I want this person to do this and take responsibility for what they have done.

I also want the answers to my question as to WHY this thread was even allowed, so I am pushing the alarm button myself to make sure that Anthony sees this and I am given an explanation..

[nic]

Wendy,

I sent you an e-mail Monday night that explained everything. I am not going to "defend" myself here, to anyone, because other forum members were not privy to certain conversations and information that we shared. If you want to discuss this further, I would be more than happy to do so off the forum.

Nic

[She Cat]

Nic,

I didn't expect you, nor did I want you to *DEFEND* yourself... Call me ignorant, but I did expect an apology. Apparently you feel that you have done nothing wrong, so you don't feel an apology is appropriate. So I guess that this absolves you from any responsibility. Sorry it just doesn't cut it for me. As far as our private conversations.........Yes I will admit I have said things to you concerning suicide, suicide ideation, my depression, and my situation. We last spoke on Sat, yes I was depressed but talked to you about your weekend and gave you encouragement with taking your test, and wished you well. On Monday night you decided to call the police based on what I had written in my diary. Did you even stop to THINK that MOTHER'S DAY may have been a HUGE trigger for me?? Something really hard to get through, something very difficult????


I didn't get your message, or your email as I had my phone shut off, and was NOT online. I ASKED that NO ONE CALL ME or CONTACT me. You crossed that boundary, and then went even further by calling the police, and causing me a ton of shit. I got your message when the cops were here, and I asked if I could make a phone call. THAT'S when I called you and told you to NEVER CALL ME AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!

I was actually sectioned 12 in the E.D until someone could pick me up.

So I guess I should take some responsibility for some of this. I apology if I have upset anyone. I did say this in my diary, thought I was very clear, apparently I wasn't.

At least I have the balls to apologize, and take responsibility for my actions.

[nic]

I'm sorry for the things you had to go through Monday night. When I called, I downplayed the situation as much as possible, and asked if someone could go check on you to see how you were doing, as I lived too far away to do so. However, (as you figured), I am not going to appologize for making the call. Like you said, you were on the precipice of suicide. I knew Mother's Day would be very difficult for you, and that, combined with what you had been saying lately, combined with your personal history, combined with you suddenly wanting no contact, the red flags were waving high, and I was very afraid that you may have acted upon these thoughts.

Like I said in my e-mail, I value our friendship, but I value your life even more. I can live with losing you as a friend--(I will be sad, of course)--but I cannot live with losing YOU.

Again, I would be more than happy to discuss this further off the forum.

Nic

[pandora]

i AM SO GLAD TO KNOW YOU ARE SAFE.

[pandora]

i AM SORRY IF I POSTED IN THE WRONG PLACE. i THOUGHT..MAYBE SOMEONE KNEW AND i WAS WORRIED AND DIDN`T WANT TO PRIVATELY EMAIL AS YOU SAID NOT TO. OOPS...sorry...caps

i am sorry it ended up here....i really just was worried she... I know...my problem, not yours and I knew it was mothers day and I thought you were just so sad lately. Sorry......someone called you and you had to go to the er..........I hope things get better soon. It I have done things, anything to offend you...I am sooosorry.
pandora

[Nicolette]

I also want the answers to my question as to WHY this thread was even allowed, so I am pushing the alarm button myself to make sure that Anthony sees this and I am given an explanation..

May I point out that no name was used so until all the "personal" arguments came into this thread people like myself, who have no access to the PTSD Members Diaries, would have been left with speculation.

Secondly, the thread became somewhat interesting talking about dealing with someone who was suicidal which I found beneficial.

It only became about you (Wendy) to others when you put your name on it. I do however appreciate the consequence of what others actions have caused you and for that I am sorry.

[anthony]

Wendy, the post as an administrative aspect was fine, as Nicolette mentioned above, it had no names. You as the person in question obviously only named yourself... all other members kept names out of the equation and it was a discussion, not just specific to you. It was a question about a member, obviously yourself now you outed yourself, though turned to a general discussion. You are the only person who released your own private details to the public, no other member. So from an editorial point of view, the thread is just fine and as you outed yourself, you are entitled to do that... providing no other member does so.

Wendy, I agree with you and I did try and tell other members to stay out of it, however; this is also what happens when members go against the exact advice given of this forum in the first place... being to not change things off the forum so they are so personal and that now others interfere in your life, instead of respecting your own adult boundaries. You have every right to be pissed if you asked me... though again, from an editorial viewpoint, the thread is secure and fine until you outed yourself. For those few who knew who it was in question, none mentioned your name publicly, only privately.

Maybe people may learn from this and stay out of others personal lives, even when they are talking about wanting to die... It is healthy to talk about suicidal ideation, wanting to die, etc... when you feel that way. It is not healthy to interfere in anothers life when that person is still making decisions for themselves and at the end of the day, only they can decide whether they want to come out of the misery or not.

[Nicolette]

I did want to say that when I first read this thread I sent a PM to Pandora (as I didn't want to share my thoughts publicly at that point) and told Anthony.

Personally, I felt that everyone should leave you alone Wendy as asked and I told Pandora that my thoughts were she should respect the wishes of the person (as I did not know it was you).

My belief is that if someone wants to kill themselves they will do so no matter what as I have seen it first hand so its best not to get involved in a situation with a cyber friend. A lot of what Tammy said made sense. If the shoe was on the other foot and it was someone close to me, well, I guess that may change my actions and emotions may overrule all manner of logic.

It sounds like what started out as good intentions has turned into somewhat of a mess. My place is not to judge the actions of others but like Anthony has said, there is something to learn out of this situation.

For future, the words (not verbatim as from memory) which Tammy said will stay in my mind..... in that if someone wants to kill themselves they will. So, other than getting them professional help, it is best to stay at arms length so you don't end up with the guilt if they do end their life. Well, that's what I thought Tammy was trying to say.:rolleyes:

[She Cat]

Anthony & Nicolette,

Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it. I was under the assumption that ANY and ALL info in the PTSD only area was OFF LIMITS and not to be taken out of there. Whether a name was used or not.

I still feel very violated and very unsure of ever posting anything I consider private in my diary for fear that it would be used against me. Not a very pleasant thought.

You're right Anthony.....People should just mind their own business. There are things that I know about member here, and I am sure that they wouldn't want it put out there for the public to know. Some people are just way to immature to understand boundaries. This is so unfortunate, because I was under the impression that this board was all about boundaries. I guess I was wrong.

Thanks again Anthony.....

[nic]

Quote from She Cat:
"There are things that I know about member here, and I am sure that they wouldn't want it put out there for the public to know."

Um...trying to get someone help during a crisis and telling the world about someone's personal history with the intent to be malicious are two very different things. While I hope you have no plans to do that, Wendy, just the fact that you made this statement deeply troubles me.

And as for eveyone else, you all do not know what was said, and when, so I would ask that you not comment on this particular situation which is between me and Wendy. Thank you.

[Lisa]

Wendy,

I'm sorry that this has all happened.

This forum is about helping ourselves and others if we can, and boundaries are in place... but whether someone respects boundaries is another matter.

I didn't comment on this thread... I didn't know who was being talked about and I didn't try to find out by reading any diaries either.

Personally, I am of the opinion that it is bad enough when professionals interefere as they do when it comes to suicidal ideation - though I understand why professionals have to act. I personally have the opinion that if I tried to save every person who suggested they were going to commit suicide - I would be donig it constantly. I don't see it as within my remit or responsibility to stop a person from committing suicide - a person chooses to commit suicide - their choice. I'd try to talk them round, but as long as it wasn't in front of my own eyes, if a person wants to commit suicide, they will do it if they want to whether I try to stop them or not. A persons suicide is their choice and responsibility and I take the view that it's unfair on myself if I took that as my responsibility to stop a person - because as I said... someone who wants to, simply will regardless. I also think it's a person's right anyway, but that's just my personal opinion.

However, I do want to say that I can also understand how friends and people who care about you and feel it would be their duty to act if they felt your life was in danger (even though I personally don't take that position). I can understand that not everyone agrees on the issues of whether or not someone should act when they think someone's life is in danger, even if they have misread the situation and made a mistake. To a person who maybe beleives that if a person is going to end their life they should act to protect that life, I can see that the action (whether that's respectful or not depends on where you sit with the issue) was out of care and not malice.

I know that doesn't change what happened, or the betrayal and violation you feel... and I know saying this ignores all that... but what has happened is you have become friendly and confided in someone who takes a different position on an aspect of the suicide debate, and they have stood by their convictions. Standing by their convictions has meant they have had to violate and disrespect yours. It's one of those bad situations where a person can't respect both sides,unfortunately... But it's one of those situations where... this person felt they had to make a decision because they perhaps misread your feelings for intent to act. I can understand why you are angry, and I think you do have a right to be...

I don't know why I'm butting in or what I'm trying to achieve here... I guess I'm just giving my opinion and also playing devil's advocate. Might be unwanted, and I'm sorry if it is.

Despite Anthony and Nicolette trying to keep boundaries on the forum kept... whether boundaries are broken off forum is not something within their control. Unfortunately that caused you a lot of trouble, particularly since you say your feelings were misinterpreted as "I am going to kill myself" as opposed to "I feel like killing myself". That person made a mistake... but they made it out of genuine care. Their position on this issue means they feel they can't apologise for that. Though perhaps an apology could have been made for the mistaken belief that you were going to kill yourself... but that's between you two, i'm just giving an outside opinion here.

At the same time... if you are going to have private or otherwise conversations about suicide... you're always going to have to make it absolutely clear that you're not going to act on it to someone who would try to stop you... egh, that sounds patronising doesn't it? Sorry. I'll leave it in and hope you see what I mean...

Anyway... I'm sorry this all happened, and wanted to say I understand why your angry.

And, despite the fact that I wouldn't have acted in that way and disagree with how Nic sees things, I'm also sorry for her, because she made a mistake, but I believe it was made out of care.

[Cecilia]

My opinion which is worth nothing.

She Cat has over 2,000 posts on this forum. She has always been very honest and frank with her responses and I like that. I'm sure she knows a lot about all of us on this forum.

Nic, do not personalize what She Cat said. She Cat is feeling vulnerable and has lost trust in the forum. That does not mean that she is going to "out" things about you. But Nic, even if she did, do you really thing it would be that awful?

Most of us have shared our lives on this forum...even the ugly parts of our lives. If something is said we have no reason to judge you. It is better to face it, own it and not hide it. I understand there may be things you are working out in therapy that you have not brought to the forum and yes, you do have a right to your privacy; but do not be scared of someone finding out something.

That really makes you sicker. I lived in denial and lying for over 15 years and when the secret was revealed, I survived.

Take care of yourself. You cannot control what others do or how they react. Just be prepared to face what comes the best you can.

I wish the best for both of you!

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Hi She Cat,
Here I go again with my 2 cents eh. I think it was very easy to figure out who you were from the posts. Although, I did not know for certain and I would imagine you should know from experience that boundaries are going to get violated on the forum, because we all are human, and here to learn.

I think forgiveness is important when a person makes a mistake, especially if it was because they care about you. There are a lot of people who have no one to care about them, and I doubt anyone would even notice they were gone if they did die. Maybe you should consider that for a moment before starting a war with your friend who happens to care about you.

If one of my family members was going to commit suicide I would call the police out of fear. However, I might stop them one time, but the next time I will let them do it, as hard as it would be. So my advice was based on internet friendships, but I've learned to keep my distance, and some people are still working on this.

Death is a very scary issue for the majority of people and the post worried me, but I thought it was good that someone brought it up, and we all learned form it, unfortunately it was at your expense (I am sorry for that). I hope you can rise above this misfortune and see it as a learning experience instead of staying stuck in this anger that will only cause you further grief.

I imagine nic and Rachel were very scared because they apparently have a relationship with you. I hope you can let this go and forgive them and they can learn from their mistakes. So what I'm asking is to just let this ride for awhile and try and calm down a bit. When your calm you will be able to think clearer and not end a relationship that, from what I can tell, is a genuine one.

Good luck.

P.S. Nicolette you are correct about my response. Guilt will take over if one gets to close, and the person decides to end their life. Some how we tend to think we could have done something different or better, and blame ourselves. That is one more issue none of us need.

Tammy

[nic]

Cecilia,

I think the thing She Cat was talking about is something that, while I am not ashamed of, would be something that would be putting my job at risk...which is exactly why I did not share this piece of information with the rest of the forum.

[She Cat]

I really appreciate everyones input (well almost everyones input) on this thread. I also appreciate that most of you understand the aspects of boundaries, and can even grasp at the thought of how much pain and suffering a person goes through with thoughts of suicide. The ONLY thing keeping me here.........Is the thought that possibly I will have a chance to see my grandchildren as one of them is almost 18. That is the only hope that I have left in this world. So I am trying to cling to that hope, as small as it is.

Nic,

I find it very interesting that you have a guilty conscience, and assumed that I was even talking about you. I will be honest. I was, but that wasn't what I was even thinking about. Put your mind at rest. I would NEVER VIOLATE your privacy. Although I will say it gave me great pleasure to see you sweat some.

[linasmom]

I really think that this thread is now causing more harm than good. Anthony, I do not want to use my moderator abilities to lock this thread because I think that would cross the line, but I ask that it be done by you.

Again, I am from the deepest parts of my heart, so sorry for what has taken place here and accept all the responsibility for my role in all of this. I will not offer up excuses for my actions and I have learned a hard lesson.

[becvan]

I agree, I believe this thread has degraded to the point of causing harm. I have kept my nose out of it and will continue to do so. However, once a thread has degraded to the point of willingly causing harm to others, and just plain anger, it stops being what this forum is about. I am withholding my opinion on this matter for clarification, but I would like to see this thread closed.

bec