I wasn't going to comment on this thread because I've never been in a relationship and so I have no experience, nothing to add. However, I do understand and relate to parts of what have been said here. Maybe it's not as difficult as in a romantic relationship, but from my own experience head games and manipulation happen in platonic relationships as well, and also between family members.

I don't like the games either... I can't imagine myself playing games like that. If I'm hurt by a situation I tend to withdraw from the person who hurt me. I definitely don't go after them and try to make their life more miserable. I prefer no contact if I can manage it. And if someone is playing games with me, even early on in the friendship, I run far far away as soon as I sense it. I can't tolerate it at all. Usually I will cut off contact completely with no explanation.

For example, and this is a minor example but it makes the point I think... fairly recently I met this girl through my support group, and I thought we could be friends. Well we had a bit of a disagreement, nothing major, at least not from my point of view. Prior to the disagreement we had agreed to go to a movie together, a matinee because we both have problems with packed theatres. Well after the disagreement she cancelled of course, but I still went, as it was a movie I was really keen on. My aunt accompanied me. The theatre was pretty deserted.

A couple of days later, my friend made contact with me again, she had been giving me the silent treatment (another thing I really can't stand), but she acted like everything was cool. We had a nice visit, but then about an hour into the visit the subject of the movie came up. Well it turned out she went to the movie too, the exact same matinee as me, just with a different friend! She knew I was there too, she saw me with my aunt! I didn't see her. She also said the movie sucked big time, and anyone who liked it was weird, knowing that I really liked it. She said it all in a really sweet innocent voice but it was obvious she was doing it on purpose to hurt me.

Well, needless to say, that was the last time I saw her. I wasn't interested in being her friend after that. The argument had been so minor and her response to it was so vindictive that I just thought **** you I don't need this. The saddest part was, she obviously didn't even realize what she was doing, because she was very confused about me not wanting to see her anymore. I didn't give her an explanation, I just brushed her off everytime she rung me or tried to make contact, until she finally got the message.

Ok, from a female who grew up in auto shops, as one of the guys, here's my stories and take on yours anthony.
First, my first crush started flirting with me, and being naive I never thought to ask if he had anyone else in his life. Well he did.
So at 16, we went out, and I moved in with him, his mom, his brother and the dog blacky, that always had his mom saying," would you get out of my ass", everytime she did the dishes.
I am injun and italian, he was injun and polish. He played with the wrong one.
I had a instinct every morning of what he would be doing that night if it was going to be disrespectful of me.
Well, this one particular day, he was a mechanic, so was my dad, similarity?,
I went to the shop at closing and of course he was mia. The one good thing he did have on the injun side was hiding, he did hide well.
Well, I hung out with a guy who had a massive crush on me, and we partied, and of course the bug up my ass, had me talking about my crush, didn't seem to disway this guy at all. Oh, well, anyway after a good three o'clock in the morning, I finally went home, he was drunk and passed out. I wasn't having it though. I just wanted honesty, so since he wouldn't wake up, I gave him hickies and sprayed him with his mom's perfume. Finally I kicked the wooden drawers under his mattress, on a constant basis, as he stirred, and finally woke up. The ball was now in my court.
I asked him where he was, and he wanted to talk about it in the morning.
It was morning I told him and kept kicking the wooden drawer til he finally was fully awake. We spoke very little, and then came the pow, I said you have no respect for me, you smell like a french whore and look at you, you even came home with hickies to rub it in my face, with that he ran to the bathroom mirror, and under his breath, he said, "that bitch", bingo, he told on himself.
Well I left then, but he is the one person, til this day that I have a need to jab at here and there, and the last person I let play head games on me. His other girlfriend and I became friends, we left him, and he went and married his partner at works ugly girlfriend, to get revenge, that only served in having alot of people not like him, and depressed because he was not satisfied in the relationship at all.
I think when you have ptsd you have to really soul search yourself and in that you face yourself head on. The average person really never has to do that at all, hence, the never do the soul searching and finding a place where they belong and as a result they may never reach the point of really ever falling in love.
Your ex sounds like her life is a game, and while playing games, people like that can never get to the real side of life.
Maybe, when you first went out with her, you did things for her, out of what you wanted to do, and she came to depend on that. Don't know. And maybe now that you are tired of the games, she expects you to continue playing, when you weren't playing in the first place.
I don't play games, but when one is initated in my direction, and I feel like I want to teach a lesson, I will end the game the winner, teaching a lesson that this is not behavior the rest of the world needs to deal with. For what it's worth, the person does learn a lesson, and even thanks me. lol
I was lucky enough to have alot of real people in my life, or more accurately, find them.
I hope your new relationship is proving to be much different and more real then the one before it.

I guess this is where I have to disagree with dlj. As soon as you lower yourself to their level to play the game, whether it's to win or teach them a lesson, you've lost the game, you haven't taught them a thing, only that sometimes the game ends unfavorably. When I notice I'm involved in a game, I stop playing COMPLETELY. When you find yourself playing the game alone, you lose, and alot of times it hits hard because the person who starts it thinks they are 'all that' and wouldn't dream that someone just wouldn't at least play and try to win. It takes their self-confidence and runs it through the ringer. To the person who refuses to play, it boosts their self-esteem because they realize they didn't need that creep anyway. So, who wins if one person refuses to play? It sure isn't the game player, cuz he's playin with himself, in more ways than one. The person who says, "I'm just not gonna play, cuz yer not worth the game" is the winner, and as a nice added effect, imagine the other person's ego deflating like a balloon when you tell them that message, it's really worth doing face-to-face.
Just my humble opinion.....
WarHippy1%

No is all I will answer here in this forum, with adrenalin pumping out of respect I will not answer to a benign statement. Yes I adore you war, but enough is enough...
Me and Sarge,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I played horrible games with my first husband. I actually felt justified as he did not treat me the best, but as life has progressed I realize it was not as bad as I thought it was at the time. The worst thing I ever did to him was sell his car without his permission. I was 18 and he had a red corvette that he adored. He would wax and wipe it. Kept it in the garage, loved the car alot more than me I am convinced. Well, I ran an ad and sold it for $6000. I was in mint condition, candy apple red, louvers, sidepipes, window etching of strawberries and roses, button tufted leather seats, mag wheels, and had all the extra's. It sold in a day and he was ready to kill me, I really did not understand what I did that was so bad at the time, now.....I am amazed I am alive.

My second husband Paul (11 1/2) years of marriage, he would always tell me that he would kill me before I would ever leave him. I am going to zip through but I left him and took the kids. I will tell more in my diary about all the violence that ensued during the break up, but....during the second restraining order hearing (being amended) he brought a rose, he had always bought me a rose for birthday, mother's day, Christmas, it was kind of his thing. Well, here we are in Judges chambers, sheriffs officers and victims advocate present in case of trouble (violence) and he hands me a rose. The judge was floored. I left the rose on my seat as I left that day and was escorted to my residence by sheriff dept. Later, as I was to serve him with divorce papers he beat me to it by a day and had me served so the venue would be in Linn County Iowa instead of Colorado. He kept continuing the case and was standing strong on the fact that he would not let me go. Then I drove to Iowa, I was excited as he had not continued the case and when I got there I was told in the courtroom that they were sorry but his lawyer had continued last minute as he was out of town on business. I was pissed to say the least. When I got to my car there was a single rose on my car seat. Scared the crap out of me. So I re upped the restraining order in Colorado, as I took that as a threat. I also wrote the judge and told him that by him continuing the case over and over (had been 2 years) he was holding me captive. The judge actually granted the divorce the next hearing even though neither of us were there.

I have not spoken to him for many years and had the great honor (bleh) of speaking with him as he called me at work about 2 years ago. The venom is still in his voice, we have been split for literally 13 years now and the hate is thick in his voice. I still watch my back as I trust this will never be over. I believe he is the ultimate in mind games.

A vent... something that needs to come out IMHO....

And this just reinforces exactly what happened between Kerrie and I, where the emotional bullshit simply continues (the games she plays), and not only does she now attack me, but now nicolette, also now the forum members. This is an extract of information she sent to me in an email today:
Now this is Kerrie's current emotional state. We broke up and our marriage cease in January this year, yet I didn't even meet Nicolette until end of February at Logans birthday party. Funnily enough, we had never even chatted until end of February, as she had her life, we had our lives... then i had my life. Kerrie seems to think now that I cheated on her because I am still married to her, though seperated. WRONG... that law is not the case here in Australia, far far from it. You do not need to be divorced in order to be in another relationship here, simply you must be seperated and all is well. Nice try... another emotional attack and game in order to try and justify in her own mind another reason for our breakup other than we just failed one another, we just failed together as a marriage. Simple as that, yet she does not want any responsibility in the failure, instead she would rather tell herself that I cheated on her after we broke up... exactly how that is cheating once you seperate, but to her it is, and no doubt will be for some time.

These are emotional games... this crap is absolute BS in my mind. Grown adults cannot accept responsibility for their actions, so they play games. Its funny though, in that she mentions my threat to her about calling the police, which I did threaten her to call the police, no issue with that, and the only reason was because she remained in MY house, not her house, but my house without my permission after I had told her to leave. She dangled the kids in front of me once again... something like, "you wouldn't put your kids out on the street, would you?" Funnily enough, silly me once again, didn't call them and let her have her controlling way once again, as she did our entire marriage, thus the next morning she wanted the keys to her car as the transport was here to pick it up... the old beat up corolla I had here, as she TOOK the new car herself.... yet I simply wanted her set of keys to MY house in exchange, yet she didn't want to give me the keys, so i told her I wouldn't give her the car key, hence why she called the police on me, the police arrived, and kicked her out of the house, told her to pack her shit and get the hell out as she was illegally staying in the house without my permission and had no authority to be their as she was not financial with the property, only myself... exactly what I told her and threatened her to call the police in the first place, but she did it for me... this is what I laugh about. So she got removed from the house, I gave her the key to the car and the police made her go and hand my keys back to the agent. Chuckled once again... because her manipulative controlling behaviour backfired on her.

This is mind games, and this is the exact shit I refer in this thread that I believe is well and truly unacceptable. Now as to why I wouldn't give her my new address... like dur, do I really want to rub it in her face? No... I am not that much of an arsehole these days. Yes, I used to be years ago and most likely would have done stupid things like that, ie. been just as nasty and certainly lowered myself to the same level, but I did not and will not as I am a completely different person nowadays to what I was, yet Kerrie still has not moved on within herself to see for herself that my new relationship has nothing to do with our seperation, nor was it even a thought at the time of seperation.

I believe to Kerrie that my relationship will never be acceptable until such time as she has let go and moves on in another relationship herself... whilst she is miserable, she wants me to be so... go figure... like I didn't see that coming. That is a pretty standard game in relationship breakdowns from what I see and have experienced myself.

Kerrie thinks I hide things, yet those with access to the PTSD only section would now that I don't, and discussed this openly the entire time, bouncing things off others, getting feedback, looking for other solutions that I have not though... yet emotional games get played. Things would be much easier if children weren't involved, though she uses them like pawns, still trying to control me with them. I would have thought she would know better by now, but still obviously not.

Now to me, I would think that not everything should be mentioned about a relationship breakdown, as i hadn't mentioned here because IMHO it would have only discredited Kerrie more, yet she attacks me with this type of nonsense, attacks Nicolette now and she has nothing to do with anything apart from being my new girlfriend after Kerrie and I had seperated, and now the forum members... what next? Maybe she will attack the kids? Maybe Melbourne itself is at fault for our marriage breakdown? Why can't adults simply be honest and look within themselves before they go jumping to others, pointing fingers and looking for someone to blame? I know why... its easier to blame someone else than it is to blame yourself. Something to do with denial and looking inwards I believe? The exact things you must do in order to heal PTSD, hence why those who heal PTSD or trauma are generally much more intune with themselves, honest with themselves, than people generally are who have not suffered trauma.

Ugh maybe I should follow in my Auntie Brenda's footsteps and become a nun... :p

I have been with my husband for 21 years now and thought that I had nothing to add. But reading things here have brought some thoughts forward. Before I met my husband, I was a very good game player. And tended to attract the same kind. Makes for miserable relationships. After I got with my husband, it took a while to work the kinks out and learn that I didn't have to play games with him. That's also when I learned that game playing is a form of self-defence. A bad one, but one used a lot just the same. It's also a form of control since through your actions or words you're attempting to control another's words or actions. Again...not a good thing to do.

I've told my daughters (especially my oldest who is an adult) DO NOT play games. Be honest, be yourself. If that's not good enough for someone...screw 'em! Then they're not worth your time. I've also had to explain (a number of times in a number of ways) that being a legal adult does not make you an adult. It has nothing to do with age and everything to do with who you are, how you act and taking responsibility for yourself and your actions. All of it...good and bad.

The mention of healing traumas with PTSD present requiring honesty was definately right on the money. At least for me. I've had to be honest with myself in ways that, I thought, were too humiliating to contemplate. But I've done it and I continue to do it because lies (even to yourself) only lead to more lies. It's a real no-sum-gain proposition. It's also lead to a deeper honesty in my marriage, my family, my friends and my life. It becomes 'If I won't tolerate dishonesty with myself anymore, why would I tolerate it in other parts of my life?' Yeah, I've lost a few friends, but I've gained a whole lot more respect for myself and better relationships with those that count.

Anthony you asked Being an adult entails taking responsibility for your actions rather than pawing them off on the most convenient person/place/thing. Some people don't fuction like that and refuse to even entertain the idea. A heard a quote years ago about adulthood. 'You become an adult when you won't take your pleasure at the expense of another's pain'

Lisa

No no Evie please my dear, one bloody self-righteous nun in the family is sufficient, thank you. Besides which fear of relationships is not a valid reason to join a religious order. Face your fears my girl, don't avoid them.

Anthony, you have my sympathies. Only been married once thank Christ. Kathy and myself went through similar difficulties during our trial separation. However. That's 30-odd years back and this old head is not what it used to be. Perhaps Kathy will recall a specific incident to share. Probably getting into hot water with this one, but females seem to have a knack for remembering past wrongs, even decades later! ;-)

Bottom line - Kathy and I were both of us young and immature, reckon in our early 20s. Both acted in ways we now regret. If I may be so bold, 35 is a bit old to still be carrying on in this fashion. Understand it is a difficult thing. Kerrie is hurting and angry, obvious that, but the expression of that hurt is self-defeating. About time to grow up in my opinion. Suppose some people never completely grow out of that behaviour. However. There are children to consider. Not a healthy atmosphere. Those precious little ones and their comfort should be top priority. Infuriates me when people use their youngsters as leverage. Very selfish, that.

Pleased to read you are not accepting any bullshit. That is the best way. Hope things settle down soon, for the sake of all concerned.

Jim.

I'm tired of relationships because the girl I'm usually dating complains about how she doesn't want a guy that plays games.

Well, the fact is love IS a game. Either you play it and have a relationship or you don't play it and don't have a relationship. Is that harsh? I don't think so. It is true though. What those ghirls wanted isn't a guy that doesn't play games, but a guy that plays their games. Sometimes they just can't tell much difference.

The human personality is so unique and diverse that "games" (as we call them) really aren't the game kids play, but instead it's finding what works for the person dating. Dfferent bits and pieces to attract them, to turn them on and to turn them off. It seems like a game, when all it really is is experimenting and researching.

IMHO.