This is the thread in question: Domestic Violence in the Military

Hi Everybody,

This message is to respond to Anthony's & Kathy's comments in another thread about dynamics between victims and their abusers. I believe the phrase that was used by both of you was something along the lines of it 'taking two to tango'.

Ack!

I didn't want to respond to it in that thread because I think we were digressing quite a bit from the spirit of the original thread, which was to support someone who was feeling really alone and isolated, but, I just couldn't just let it slip by either, hence this shiny new thread.

And yes, as the word "controversy" implies, I vehemently disagree, or at least I think I do, because, I guess it depends on what you meant.

If your comments are meant to mean that victims of abuse aren't sort of like Mary Poppins ("Practically Perfect in Every Way"). Then, yes, of course, I agree with you. Everyone is human, we all have bad hair days and we've all done and said things that we regret.

But, that is a pretty obvious thing to say. So, I don't think that is what you were getting at, especially given that it was embedded within a conversation about domestic abuse. In which case, I think (and please correct me if I am wrong here) that what you are implying is that victims egg on their abusers. Which is another way of saying that sometimes victims "ask for it". In other words, it is blaming the victim.

I am assuming that you aren't just talking about ordinary healthy expressions of anger or disagreement. This forum is chock full of that, so I am assuming that you both would agree that that disagreement is healthy and okay and that hitting someone just because the won't do and say what you want them to do, is over the top wrong.

What I think that what you two are talking about, is when one partner is emotionally abusive and the other is physically abusive. Does the emotional abuse some how make it more okay for the physically abusive partner to hurt his/her partner?

And, I have to say, and I can't do it emphatically enough. No! Absolutely, no!
-- I had boyfriend make disrespectful comments at me. It doesn't mean I felt compelled to hit him. It means I asked him to stop nicely and when he persisted in doing it, I broke up with him. That simple.

Letting abusers off by pretending that they were driven to do what they did plays into their mentality. That is how abusers think, they don't take responsibility for their actions. "S/he made me do it." In fact the two most common excuses abusers make are, "S/he deserved it," and "I didn't hit that hard,"

No, I am not justifying emotional abuse. It is not okay. Really, not. It is hurtful and we deserve to feel emotionally safe as well as physically safe. (those are the minimum requirements, really, we deserve a lot more in our relationships, like love, support, etc.).

But, does that in any way justify physically abusing someone? - absolutely not!! That is just another way of saying that sometimes: Might makes right - which I think, when put that way, just sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

The only time physical violence is okay is in self defense from physical violence (or defense of your children / someone more helpless than you). And THEN using only reasonable force.

(Okay, truth be told, if it involved children, I probably would use more than reasonable force.)

What is interesting to me is that both of you have admitted to suffering physical abuse from a partner in the past. So, I am wondering if maybe your comments are really about not yet having fully come to terms with what happened at those times?

By blaming ourselves for violence that was done to us, we make it something we can control, so we are not "victims" because we had a choice. We tell ourselves that we can choose differently (alter our own behaviour) next time.

I know that I did this, and since most of the stuff that happened to me was when I was a) way too young to be responsible for anything; and b) stuff that could in no way warrant what happened to me, I know in my situation that my thinking was distorted. But, I learned in therapy that it is a very common coping mechanism, which helps get you through the abusive situation at the time, but needs to be unlearned once you are in a safe place.

You both from what I've read of your posts seem really overall to be healthy, and very supportive and caring with the people who find their way to this website. But just because you have done a lot to work through your traumas, does not mean that there aren't still areas that still need to worked on and healed. Especially if reading this makes you uncomfortable or angry, then it is a sign that it is hitting close to home.

This is really important issue, because people out there who are still in the violent situation might be reading these notes, and I really don't want anyone who is being hit to think that anything they are doing could justify that.

KM

Well I have to say I'm angry at your title, I find it quite triggering but I guess that's my issue.

I think I've found the thread you are referring to and only read a few posts.

Seems to me that Anthony & Kathy are simply talking about co-dependancy. Google it.
It's a pretty widely accepted theory about perpetuating the cycle of physical/emotional abuse in families. Enabling etc. It's not blaming the victim.

I will let Anthony & Kathy respond for themselves, but I think you may have misunderstood them. I'm not reading into their posts what you seem to be (but then I've never been a victim of physical/emotional abuse).

I don't think they were talking about co-dependency, because I don't think that would be something that is controversial and they acknowledged that what they were saying was.

But, it may be the case that I am misunderstanding them anyway, perhaps they are trying to get at something else entirely that I just kind of missed. I hope so, but whatever it is that they meant by it, it is good for us to have a chance to talk about it and air it out.

I am sorry to hear that the title offended you. Is it because of the word "controversy"? I figured this might be a controversial post - so was warning people who don't like / get upset by conflict (I used to be one - and sometimes still am) (am trying to think of a different word to use but now can't think of one) so that they didn't stumble in here unawares and then get upset by the content.

So, I was trying to avoid upsets by using that title. Oh well, best laid plans of mice and insomniacs.

KM

KM, I believe you have misunderstood me, however I haven't the time comment fully this morning. I did split the thread, and included a link to it at the top of the post, so there is no confusion for those reading. I will come back to this later on. I will say though quickly, I used to work in a women's shelter, and I certainly do not condone abuse of any kind. I believe I stated that in the thread.

I think there are two different kinds of domestic abuse being talked about here, and being confused with each other. One kind is, as you mention KM, where there clearly one abuser and one victim. In that case, the abuser is usually a controller, a predator, and will go from partner to partner repeating the cycle of abuse. But not all domestic violence cases are like that, at least not in my opinion. I'll use my stepparents as an example.

Eric and Cheryl were happily married for a few years. They didn't have any major problems. Eric was in the military and he was deployed several times. After his last deployment he was developing PTSD, though no one knew it at the time. While Eric was on stress leave, he started drinking heavily and yelling at Cheryl and us kids. He'd spend days shut up in his room by himself. Cheryl yelled at him back just as much, and they had these horrible fights. Cheryl often started it, because she was upset about him being depressed and withdrawn. He would tell her to leave him alone, he would try to get away from her, I remember seeing him restrain her once because she was hitting him in the face. He was trying really hard not to hit her, because he was a lot larger than her physically. These altercations often occurred when they were both drinking. The violence escalated. Eric did end up hurting Cheryl. But really, who were the victims? Me and my brother. Not Cheryl. I refuse to see Eric as the sole abuser in this, and Cheryl as a victim. Cheryl was not a victim. She chose to act how she did, and did provoke Eric. She also did not protect my brother and I. She is was just as abusive as Eric in my opinion.

They had many choices. Cheryl could have left, Eric wasn't stopping her nor threatening her. Truth be told, he was depressed and wanted to be left alone. They could have sent my brother and I away, they could have got counseling... they had lots of options and they chose not to use them. Together. They were both at fault. I guess my point is, not all cases of domestic abuse are black and white. Lots of these cases are really complicated, there's lots of grey areas.

Hi KM, well written, though I must mix this around a little due to what need be stated so that you do understand what is being said.

So you are aware, this does not make me uncomfortable at all, nor angry. Actually what you are saying for the most part is exactly what I was saying, yet you are missing this and maybe actually confusing your experience with the intent here.

Do you think people with trauma acknowledge the obvious easily? That is why the very obvious is stated here time over, because people over complicate their thinking, they look for things that are often much harder than the truthful easy, as you say "obvious" aspect that is right in front of them. When you read many things I turn around on people, their own words that is, you typically find many people state the problem and the answer in the same sentence, yet until someone shows them the "obvious" answer which is their own, they just miss it. So what you saying about "obvious" stems it own realms off issues when tied to trauma.

Now this is exactly what I am saying, and this is exactly what I believe you are now reverting to your own experience. My experience of being physically abused by my ex-wife was a five and a bit foot girl hitting me as hard as she could, throwing heavy objects at me which I typically ducked, though sometimes hit me, though never could she really do much damage too me providing I could see her and what she was doing. I was simply to fast and strong for her to hurt me too much, but that does not excuse her act so to speak, which makes it physical abuse nonetheless.

What your confusing here is you are implying that the conversation is about you, that when either myself or Kathy make such a statement that both parties can egg on the other for abuse, being as you say "they asked for it" is that your missing key words, key aspects of the conversation and completely taking only one aspect to your experience, your feelings, and your making it about you. You think Kathy and myself are saying "all" victims ask for it. That is nothing like what either are saying, and I speak for Kathy loosely only, in that she will answer for herself with her own opinions and thoughts no doubt.

"Some" couples get into an abusive cycle where each other actually "intentionally" do nasty and hurtful things to one another so that the abuse cycle continues. The reason why "some" abusive relationships do that is because that is what they know in order to get attention, to get what they now even can see as affection from their partner. That may sound scary to you, but that is the factual and proven truth of "some" domestic violence relationships. Literally, neither one can live without the abuse, whether physical or emotional, that is how they have learned to communicate and function. Not everything is about physical abuse, which I believe you are implementing your own experience into this equation KM... and possibly need to step back and look at the bigger picture of abusive relationships outside your own experience. Do some reading on this and you will find exactly what is being said here is fact, is the truth as it stands.

You need to look at the key indicators, key words, "some", words which are not about you but about an entire picture of abuse. The facts are, a lot of abusive relationships actually stem a cycle of abuse from one another, in that one or the other intentionally provoke the other partner to get a reaction, whether that be physical or emotional, a reaction nonetheless. Does that statement however state, "all abusive relationships?" No. It is a common pattern found in certainly many abusive relationships, but not all, and nor am I stating a "majority" here either. Please read carefully.

Abuse comes in many shapes and sizes, the pattern or provoking does also. It can come from a disgruntled partner hiding the car keys from the other because an argument they had the night before. That means, by doing that act one has now actively engaged the other to provoke them, to cause them intentional torment. The reason is because lets say the other party decided to come home late, had an argument and one party now feels emotionally hurt, hurtful things where said. Those statements in themselves, those hurtful words we say in an argument, they are said to "intentionally provoke" the other person, otherwise we wouldn't say them, we would assert what we feel, not try and hurt the other party.

Do you see how basic it becomes? Can you understand its not just about physical abuse, it stems much greater than that?

This topic I knew would cause this, I knew people would look at it quite narrowly and most likely apply it to their own situations, tell themselves such things like, "OMG, is Kathy and Anthony saying I deserved it? Are they saying I asked for it?" These type of things.

The facts are though, some abuse is just abuse, some abuse stems from being abused and hurt, some abuse is just vendictive, the list is quite long and complex, but you must understand that it can be from hiding the keys to cause frustration, to intentionally not respecting one another as people, to emotional or physical abuse, to any act that is caused to intentionally cause another hurt or pain, especially when the act is because they hurt you first. That is what is being articulated in these statements.

I hope that gives you a better understanding of such a statement KM, and that you not apply that statement as words from either to your situation or experience, but look beyond yourself to the overall pattern of abuse, the facts of abuse that are outside your experience.

My ex-boyfriend abused me verbally and emotionally. The straw which broke the 'camel's back' was when he punched me in the face, after just coming out of hospital from lower back surgery, splitting above my eye open.

My blame: When he was less abusive, but still abusive, I did nothing to change the situation. I complained yes, but he didn't stop and I made a bad choice thinking 'things would change'. When he hit me and I saw all the blood I knew I was faced with a life-alerting choice - I either got out and saved myself or I had to live with the consequences having all the knowledge of past behaviour to assess the situation with. To stay would have made me a 'victim' of my own bad choices. I left and have never looked back. The choice I made from then, which I had control of, was that I would NEVER allow another man who I was in a relationship with abuse me. Can I control that, hell yes, there are the signs and I now pay attention rather than choosing to ignore them hoping they all go away. No-one like that generally ever improves or changes for the long term unless something life changing happens to them or they want to change for themselves.

I do have control and I now choose to own my responsibility for the relationships in my life. I will no longer contribute to an abusive relationship by choosing not to be in one!

I apologize KM, unfortunately today has been very emotional for my family (for a reason entirely unrelated to this thread) and I believe the next couple of days may be just as emotional. I am therefore bowing out of this thread for a time, I simply haven't the mental energy at the moment to comment as I would like. However I will say Anthony's viewpoint is very solid, and mine is similar to his own. I will respond more in depth once things settle down here.

Hi Kathy,

Absolutely no need to apologize. I've read your other post, so am aware that you are hurting right now. I wish I could think of something to say to such a profound tragedy, but really the only thing I can think of to say is how sorry I am to hear of your loss. And of course, now to have another child being sent off into danger, that must be terribly upsetting. My thoughts are with you and your family.

KM.

I am so tired, that everything I write seems to coming out somewhat incoherently. But, Evie, Nicollette & Anthony, I would like to write responses to each of you, so will come back when I have a little more energy and can give it my full and proper attention.

KM