My last fortune cookie said,"Start Learning Chinese"

I'm almost at a loss for words . . .

However, documentation will do . ..

NOTE: I AM NOT WRITING THIS POST TO DEFEND ANYTHING, JUST INTERJECT SOME REALITY IN THE THREAD. CHINA WILL BE A POWERFUL COUNTRY ECONOMICALLY AND MILITARILY, JUST NOT YET. ALL OTHER OPINIONS ARE RESPECTFULLY CONSIDERED

For those of you who think of China as an advanced power or anything but a developing country, struggling to rise up to the level of a developed nation please consider these facts with the links to the source of them . . .

China:
Gross National Income - - - - - - - - - rank 129th behind Cape Verde, Samoa, Swaziland and Albania.
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNIPC.pdf
as compared to developed countries such as Luxembourg 76,040; United Kingdom 40,650; Canada 36,170; Australia 35,990.

Total GNI------------------------------- rank 4th 2,641,487, behind Germany, Japan, and the US
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNI.pdf

Total GDP--------------------------------4th 2,668,071 behind Germany, Japan, and the US

PPP GDP----------------------------------2nd 10,048,026, behind the US
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP_PPP.pdf

Population----------------------------------1st 1,311,798 as compared to India 1,109,811; US 298,988
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/POP.pdf

The World Economy Classification Scale—China is listed as low-medium income level
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/CLASS.XLS

Globalfirepower.com Ranks military power in gross term which weights heavily on population and production capacity . . . . China 3rd, Russia 2nd and US 1st
http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison.asp

For those who want to read a balanced account of the would strategic situation . . .
http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison.asp

In the above strategic analysis China is projected to possibly purchase increased military power but will take an estimated ten years to reach the higher levels of preparedness.


I suggest considering that except for internal security, military power is useless unless it can be projected outside it's own boarders.

There is also a qualitative aspect to military preparedness. As an example, the old F-15 which is long past being the best fighter the US has, has almost 200 kills in air-to-air combat without a single loss. The F-22, a 4th generation fighter, is a quantum leap in technology and combat potential.

The Chinese Jian-10 fighter, a 3rd generation fighter, is China's first indigenous attempt at an air superiority fighter http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0111/p07s01-woap.html and analysis of the increasing Chinese military potential. It is one generation removed from the F-22 Raptor which would very possibly be invisible to both the pilot of the Jian-10 and any AWAC's the Chinese happen to have.

Here are a few interesting links for your viewing pleasure and laughs . . .
http://www.perspectives.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=130492&forum_id=106
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread256826/pg1


Best quote's

cloudyang “I am a college student in China

Most of my classmate hate ARMY OF USA hate the government of USA

here is the new air plane for PLA”


???? “I am a collage student of China too!

I don't heat US,I am learning your culture,though my english isn't good

I like America,and I love China ,so i wish we never fight

new plane is used for peace,not be used for fight with F-22

it's first time I sent message here,nice to meet you ,Americans!”

Fighter Master FIN
“Well to be honest, nobody knows so we can only speculate (and believe me, that's something people here love to do). We should not, I repeat not start discussing it again. If we do we will just end up with 20 pages of useless crap proving nothing. At the end of the day you can always reply to a post with "nobody knows since it hasn't gone head to head with the USA fighters"

However if you demand some sort of line-up. The J-10 is said to be equal with the American F-16. And that the F-22 would well destroy it in any sort of combat. That's the explanation I would expect you to read at the end of the 20 page if we let westpoint and stealth spy go head to head.“


NOTE: I AM NOT WRITING THIS POST TO DEFEND ANYTHING, JUST INTERJECT SOME REALITY IN THE THREAD. CHINA WILL BE A POWERFUL COUNTRY ECONOMICALLY AND MILITARILY, JUST NOT YET. ALL OTHER OPINIONS ARE RESPECTFULLY CONSIDERED

This website is using data from the year 2000 Doug....
This is a joke website Doug.... how exactly is this a leader in political standing?
Again, your using data now 3 years old... getting closer though. Last year was 2007, not 2005.

I believe you are trying to defend your country. You just don't want to accept these facts. Again, your using information that is not only outdated, your using information that only backs your cause, not the facts of world economy statistics from reputable agencies. A blog is not reputable.

Now, your trying to do something here that is not a factor of a countries wealth or power; your attempting to assimilate per capita statistics into the equation. China has a population around 1.2 billion I believe when last looked... America around 350 million. The majority of China is poor... over half America is poor. China outweights per capita in poverty, though that has nothing to do with a countries wealth overall. If it did, America would be way down the list also.

A countries wealth is based on its assets vs. debt. Its position within the global market, its imports and exports, etc etc. It is viewed at the country level, not a per capita level. If you went per capita, you would only view such things as pollution rates at a per capita rate. China as a country has higher pollution than the USA, however; when rated at the per capita level then the USA actually kicks China's arse in pollution, meaning for every person in the USA pollutes 3 - 5 times as much as a person in China. China has over a billion, America over 300 million. That you can utilise per capita, but not a countries wealth.

You can use a few factors in an attempt to derive a countries wealth, yet that will not accurately achieve it either. You need all the facts, not just a few facts and figures and compare them against each other. Most people who do that want a desired result, ie. an American trying to tell the world America is still the super power of the world, the richest country in the world, etc etc. Just like a study, you can pre-determine the outcome if you only include the information you want.

Now I believe you are trying to defend your country, which is natural, but the facts are that China is now the world super power. You have this thing stuck in your head about a super power is about military might or the like, when in fact it has little to do with military. America doesn't own any of the bombs it drops, hasn't for many years now, China owns them and America is in debt for each and every one of them.

Australia is actually out of debt nowadays, as we started going down that road a decade ago also, though with a good leader focused on owning the country and creating wealth internally, we own our country, have good import / export and the countries per capita are quite wealthy at an average level.

I do not know about every country, nor do I claim, but I do know certain facts as I am an astute watcher of news and business news. I like to know what is going on in the world as world economy affects every country. For example, the US economy is shit presently, going into recession, and that affects every other country in terms of import and export abilities. Cost raise and lower depending on a countries economy, so it has a flow on effect to other countries in various ways.

Australia started down the scary road the US is already on with credit card debt, where people could just get money any which way, even though they couldn't afford to pay it back. The Government closed it down quick smart and created laws to stop it, because it wasn't in the best interest of the country to allow its populous to get into debt which they could not repay. Smart law.... an American once said to me that would impose on a persons freedom in the US, which my response was, glad this isn't the US then. The USA is driven by money, not commonsense and best interest of the population. Why? Because the population stopped caring and needs to voice itself and create change. Freedom is not freedom if your allowed to do whatever you want. Thats not freedom, that is stupidity and asking for mass panic, chaos and death. That is not control, and every country must have control over the population to keep order. Lose order, lose control of the country. Just look at Africa and some other countries in lawlessness due to reform. Not pretty....

All countries have problems, its a given fact of life. The size and complexity of those problems stem from not only the Government, but also the populations ability to nudge the Government in the right direction as a majority. A population working against itself is not healthy either, when a majority need to be heard in order to make change. The USA need to get out of every other country, they need to stabilize their own economy, they need to stay out of anothers country unless invited, they need to get back to buying their country back because China owns a good majority of the commercial entity now.

Do you think that America owns its global infrastructure anymore? Think about this:
News in Jan 08 as posted in the NY Times (read full version from link), just to appease the US persons here so you know your being quoted from reputable US sources:

I haven't even got started on how much Arabian sources own in the US, though China have more overall presently. Some of the very countries the US fight are bordered by countries that own major stakes in the US economy. Interesting.... ha?

I could go on all day, but US citizens need to do their research to see the full facts of your commercial assets. It is the commercial sector which shows a countries majority wealth, as person fortune stems from commercial stability. No jobs, no personal wealth. Its measured against itself to derive difference obviously.

Will the US recover? Yes.... though US citizens and the US government will own much less again of its own country, as investors all round the world are pumping money in whilst the country is broke and "cheap" to buy up its commercial sector. What does that mean once it comes up again? Well, whilst laws exist that only a certain amount of money can be taken from a countries investment, outside investors will take that money, they will use their capital to invest further into the US economy, though whilst creating jobs for citizens, the US people won't own the majority of the commercial sector, overseas investors will.

The only thing US citizens can do to stop this is to send a very loud and majority message to the Government telling them to get the hell out of every other country they where not invited and focus for a decade minimum on building internal growth and wealth once again. Laws should be introduced that the US military cannot leave the US unless attacked directly by a countries military force or requested to aid another country upon request. All else.... keep out of it and let other countries do their thing without trying to interfere and make things worse.

If the US lose things like Citibank, then the country is gone as American owned.... and it looks that way more and more as each day goes by. At a point a country must limit its imports and exports even to control inflation. Because China is cheaper, does that mean you should use it? Again, Government needs to make laws limiting commercial sectors from outsourcing overseas to reduce costs, because it impacts the internal structure of the US economy, jobs are lost, income, diversity and stability. Because you can borrow money, does it mean you should? No... you shouldn't. Whilst the Government control certain factors of the economy, the population also has certain responsibilities in their own economy. By US products even though they are more expensive... all these little things.

For example, in Australia you have a tag that is attached to any produce owned and/or made in Australia, so when you view both products and one may be cheaper than the other, you know by buying the Australian product you protect jobs and the integrity of the Australian economy by doing so. This type of thing is an example of how the population can help to control their own economy, their jobs stability, etc.

I think you get the idea... though quite a complex issue overall with countries economy. Let alone what a business analyst could share upon this conversation.... which would likely blow us all away with the poor state of certain countries economy and future outlook.

That's pretty funny...

Funny on one hand.....
Scary as everliving hell on the other.....

Scary indeed Port!

Well, anthony . . . I'm not defending anything like I said. I offered those links as reference, as I said. And I did it with full knowledge that the data was dated by a couple years which is how long it takes to collect it. Now mate, you are sounding like you are defending your position. I don't herar nothing discussion the information there. That would be nice. It seems to me you just want to knock the opposition down with hundreds of word, and critiques of selected quotes. I am sourly disappointed in ya mate. Sourly disappointed.

Actually, I don't really care enough to talk about the real issues here which go beyond most peoples understanding like economics of international investments, balance of trade and the like, or strategic concepts on this site . . . but in 10 or 20 years if China is really a super power and the US declines as claimed, and retreats into isolationism which is its habit . . . I want to know who's going to step up the the plate to re-assure Japan, Taiwan, S. Korea. The EU, Australia, Japan, Russia?

Hey Doug, sorry it came across that way to you, not actually my intent. My intent was to show you the other side of the fence, that was all. My apologies.

When you refer though to stepping up to the plate, exactly how do you as a US citizen believe it is your place to step up to any other countries plate unless asked to do so? And even then if asked, why do you believe it is your countries "duty" to help another if the Government is not capable of helping its own country already? Doesn't that only make matters worse? Supporting another country is something you do if you can last time I looked, it certainly does not fall as a "duty" to any country. I think this is a mistake on US citizens thinking if that is the case.

I guess you could say America was once the recognised super power in all aspects, not military power, but economy. It is not bombs that make money, it is growth and forward thinking. The US excelled in that years ago yet got very very lost along the way... like all good things, there are negatives that will drag a positive down. I believe a lot of US commercial sectors got greedy. They wanted it all as fast as possible, which has helped bring down the US economy. The US is now used as an example around the world of what not to do, and where not to go in future planning and development. I guess as unfortunate as it is, your loss is the worlds gain. But why I guess is the big question? I believe it has a lot to do with greed, and whilst that is not the average joe blow citizens issue, it is now their issue because the top tipped over.

I don't think I ever said that and if I did it was a mistake in what I wrote. I think you misjudge me. I am pro people. I absolutely believe that the US GOVERNMENT should keep their nose out of other countries business . . . . absolutely.

On the other hand, my question is not rhetorical or idle debate, or a trap set for you or anyone . . . what happens if the US goes isolationist . . . a perfectly straight forward question.