Well, lets do this people. Healthy debate (no name calling please!) Hope you don't mind Nicolette, I borrowed your sentence for the title!

So.. what is justifiable behavior for the sufferer considering the illness and what is drawing the line?

bec

Good debate topic Bec. I also think it is good you have clarified that is a debate so no-one misunderstands the intent.

Personally, for me to enter this debate, I think justifiable would become entangled with acceptable and tolerable based on my life experiences. I am not qualified to assess what is justifiable medically in accordance with the symptoms and effects of PTSD. While I try to educate my self some of my views are based on morals and values instilled into me as a child with a dash of life experiences thrown in.

I would also go as far as saying that just because something is justifiable to me does not necessarily mean that I could live with it or would choose to do so.

LOL, but isn't that what we all do? I mean really, next to knowledge is our experiences and beliefs... I think justifiable is always entangled with acceptance and toleration. We are human!

So.. my first addition to this is rages.

Are rages justifiable?

Well, they are a well known symptom of PTSD. However, they can be the most damaging and the one that most easily crosses a line into abuse. So I think this is the most dangerous one (physically that is.)

I don't think they are so much justifiable, as they are understandable.. at first. I think that some hard lines need to be drawn here. Getting hit by fists or objects, or screamed nasty names is just not right.

So I think with this.. a good talk about boundary settings with this aspect is worked on is imperative. A safe room for the person to go and wack pillows or something, away from everyone else.. for exampe.

If they are hitting you. Leave now. Talk later. If they won't even consider working on this. Leave now. Don't bother talking. If they are willing to work on this.. set up safety boundaries, where it's very clearly understood what is and isn't acceptable, and how the sufferer can release this (punching bag, pillows..) while working on it is a definite. The carer needs to stick to the boundaries.. and so does the sufferer! Have a clear plan for how to work on this (medications and therapy, anger management, exercise.. etc.)

bec

A big key to all of this I think. To have a plan means you have discussed the topic and what could possibly happen as you are trying to prepare for it. Good point Bec.

Use of drugs and other "self help" things such as out right denial that the sufferer has done or is doing anything wrong in any way.. in a household where there are 3 young children living with the sufferer at home every day.

For clarification.. when the sufferer knows they have PTSD yet denies that any of their verbal, physical actions are affecting the children or others around them and believes its all every one else's fault and will not rationally discuss the issues.

Since this thread is open to sufferers, I'd like to chime in a bit regarding shut outs. My experiences with shut outs have a different angle than the one that was discussed in a different thread, but thought that I should share how I, as a sufferer, tend to shut out my husband -

Many many times, I will race around the house like a maniac doing this and doing that - running the vacuum, straightening up, doing anything to preoccupy myself when a lot of times, none of those things are urgent matters, but to me, any sort of "mess" in house sets me off a lot of times. While doing this, I will start raging in my own head because as I'm trying to "straighten out the mess" my husband will be relaxing on the couch, surfing the internet, doing whatever, and I will just fume that he is not helping me. The thing is - I never say anything. Instead, I slam doors, I huff and puff, I glare like a mad woman, I probably have fire coming out of my nose but I say nothing - until BAM, he asks me what's wrong and I fly off the handle that there's tons of things to be done and he's not helping. Problem? I didn't tell him that I would like some help.

The interesting thing is - I've actually thought on many occasions that I DID tell him, because as I fume in my head how pissed off I am that he's not helping I somehow think that I verbalize it at the same time, but I don't! I have internal conversations that are so strong I actually think I'm verbalizing. And now that I think about it, I think I don't verbalize them because I don't want to rage - I'm trying to protect him from my "messy head" but in the end, it fails!

Do I realize that this is a failed coping mechanism - yes. Do I still do it - yes. Am I working on it - yes. If someone were to put a time frame on how long I had to fix this - I would tell them to leave me now, that they are not the right person for me.

I realize this is slightly different than the original debate in a different thread, but this may also be another shutting out mechanism that some carers here have experienced and I just wanted to share as a sufferer.

Best,
Rachel

This debate started in a thread about shut outs, so I'll start there with my comments. People do what they must do to protect themselves. Some of the protective mechanisms are unhealthy but typical. The shut outs are a part of this. If someone shuts out for a year or more (my DH did this in his past, before I was around), that is not healthy. It can lead to divorce. It can lead to financial ruin. But it happens. And sometimes that is necessary. NECESSARY? Yes, as sometimes a person has to hit bottom before they can want to get better and to learn better, healthier coping mechanisms.

Now, how does a life partner cope with that? Not well, usually! It would take a Mother Theresa type to stick it out for over a year of being shut out and having divorce papers filed against him/her, when the PTSD spouse decides they need to be alone, and that they are bad for everyone around them. Yet, it may be necessary, ultimately, for the PTSD sufferer to go through divorce, break-up of a family, and financial ruin.

So is this "justifiable"? I don't think I understand that part of the question, honestly. I think it is not uncommon. I think it may even be necessary for some people to realize they need to make some changes in their lives.

Now, when one gets into other behaviors, the term "justifiable" makes more sense to me. It is not "justifiable" to be physically violent to another human being, and our laws pretty much universally condemn domestic violence. That is a "coping mechanism" that is so dysfunctional as to bring the person to hit bottom in a jail cell, which is definitely society's way of saying no, this is not justifiable. Shut outs are better.

Linasmom, I used to do the same thing! I used to empty the dishwasher and growl at my husband because he was being a slug on the couch while I did all the work. Now I make a conscious effort to say, "Sweet, Darling Husband, my Favorite Husband, Please go move the clothes into the dryer...NOW."

Because if I didn't say NOW, he would not act on my orders until 3 hours later because his seat was already warm.

Then, he would get up and walk toward the laundryroom.

A little while later, I would notice that there was no dryer noise.

"Sweet, Loving Husband O Mine, Did you put the clothes in the dryer?"

"Yes."


"Did you turn the dryer ...ON?"

"You didn't ask me to."

If I am trying to justify a behaviour, does that not imply that I know it is harmful, and am trying to find a way to make it acceptable? This in turn assumes that I am aware of what I am doing and how it affects those around me. If somone is truly acting without this awareness, I think they cannot be faulted.

I personally did not know for a long time that some of my dissociated states ammounted to an emotional disappearing act that triggered everything from fear to rage in those affected. Once made aware of that fact, I was open to hearing what would mimimize the impact of what is largely a choiceless process for me. Over time I have become somewhat more able to identify these dissociated staes within myself, and can then at least name for others what is going on, as a means of reassuring them that they are not crazy or have done nothing wrong.
The next step is learning the things that will ease me back into 'association' if you will. If I lived on a desert island, there would be no impetus to do so, but to the extent that I am affecting others, I need to be willing to work on this stuff. This is about taking responsibility for my every action in this life.

Anyone who attempts to absolve me of that reponsibility by justifying bad behaviour is doing me and themselves a great disservice.

Ohh very good point dlross! I think that was something I was trying to put across also! I don't think it matter exactly what it is that is going on what matters is if the sufferer or carer KNOWS something is going on that is causing issues yet they do NOTHING.

communication is the key to everything.. no matter if it is something like a shut out or any other action. If say the sufferer KNOWS they are shutting out the carer and KNOWS it is hurting the carer yet does NOTHING not even a message saying they are ok and still love the carer every now and then .. and the carer KNOWS the sufferer KNOWS what they are doing is hurting the carer.. that is where I believe a boundary is crossed over to uncaring and causes action to be taken.

There is a difference to being in total denial of the situation and believing everything will get better if you just wait it out... to thinking you must not let your feelings get hurt when someone is hurting you because they can't help them selfs even when they know they are hurting you.